Coil groups don't want dragoons?

[MrCookTM]

Bard has to put up paeon just as much because NIN burns TP at the same rate MNKs do. I do not know where this argument came from (it is not just you saying it) but it needs to die in a fire some where over yonder.

Also NIN magic DMG from mudra is trivial in the grand scheme of the entire fight.

^ This a million times. It was relevant pre nin-nerf because nin could goad the mnk while haveing a lower tp consumption himself, generally lowering the need for paeon. Since nerf though, bard has to play paeon for nin anyway so it doesn't matter. Only way to avoid early/multiple paeon's for melees is going with double nin and have them goad each other.

Also, a few other facts:

- Mnk was highest ST dps at i110. At i130 though nin and mnk are the same with nin having the advantage of not losing a ton of dps by losing gl3 and having better burst and a dps increase for the whole raid in the form of trick attack.
- The difference between nin/mnk and dragoon ST dps at i130 is negligible. If you have a kickass brd though that pulls 480 or even 500+ dps consitently, disembowel alone will make up for the small difference, since this bards dps will go through the roof.

If anything we need to ask if mnk is still needed for anything... higher risk, but not higher reward... dragon kick is still the deciding factor. Does your raid need it because you're progressing fcob? Cool, pick up a mnk, it will increase your survivability and cause less heart attacks for your healers. Do you have shit on farm? No reason to bring a mnk, go with nin/nin or nin/drg for max deepz. At the end of the day though it doesn't matter when you have everything on farm, so pick whatever you like... ^^

[seekified]

Hmm, a lot of people talking about this as if they only want 1 melee compositions. What happened to the double melee norm? :P

If you only have 1 in the group then I can kind of understand a group preferring Monk / Ninja simply because of the gap in utility. But anyway, I'll be embarrassed if he sees this, but our group's DRG always pulls ahead without fail on fights with some movement / drop-offs. Like others have said, what they lack in utility they make up for in more reliable and consistent direct damage. They're especially great at mowing down adds and have better AOE, which can be useful in T13 for example. Countless successful groups don't discriminate against DRGs anyway, so don't stress yourself over those nitpicky ones. DRGs are very respectable DPS.

Agreed. As I said before, my group uses MNK + DRG and it's great. Paeon is still needed even with NINs to keep the NIN itself up, so having Dragon Kick and a good DRG's reliable damage output, high uptime mobility and Disembowel? Good choice any day.

[SpookyGhost]

If this game was stricter and Final Coil wasn't so out geared at this point, I'd say those groups have a point. But this isn't the game we play, so those groups are pants on head stupid. Every DPS is fine for progression, especially if you're i120+. You don't even need DK/Mantra anymore, so your slot shouldn't be filled with a MNK because "We need DK!". If I were recruiting for a static at this point, or even just for a turn, I'd take any 2 melee DPS I could find.

[Viviza]

I play on brynhildr and most of the statics only seem to want ninjas and monks, when I ask if my dragoon can join I get told they don\\'t want to waste a slot. Is there actual decent reason for not bringing a dragoon or is it just their personal opinion? I know we don\\'t help any other class but bard and fellow dragoons out but I\\'d like to think we can still be useful in raids.

At risk of calling you out, you're probably exaggerating. You probably asked one or two groups, and they declined because of you, not your job. Melee is pretty balanced right now and raiders know it. The choice really comes down to what utility you want. First and foremost raid groups are looking for the right person, unless they're crazy dedicated.

[Itseotle]

If this game was stricter and Final Coil wasn't so out geared at this point, I'd say those groups have a point. But this isn't the game we play, so those groups are pants on head stupid. Every DPS is fine for progression, especially if you're i120+. You don't even need DK/Mantra anymore, so your slot shouldn't be filled with a MNK because "We need DK!". If I were recruiting for a static at this point, or even just for a turn, I'd take any 2 melee DPS I could find.

This guy gets it. Most people are i130 just from WoD and Poetics. You can walk into T10 with 6-7k HP and thats enough for T13.

[Craiger]

Like have been mentioned, DK and Mantra doesn't mean anything anymore... so MNK doesn't really have more useful utility than DRG at the moment.

MNK and NIN have higher potential DPS than DRG, but the funny thing is that very few people optimize their DPS anyways...

A good BLM can produce more DPS than a big portion of the melee DPS doing Final Coil. Just as an example, as my main is BLM... And if you compare many melee DPS numbers, you'll probably see DRG/MNK/NIN all pretty even.

It all comes down to how good the player is. These comparisons between DPS, is only really relevant if everyone is at the exact same skill level.

Also, MNK's will lose GL and might not be able to hit all their positionals, which means they don't have the highest DPS anymore

[ShiroSteve]

As a dragoon in Brynhildrs end game progression world I can tell you this is simply not true OP. There are a lot of raid teams clearing Final Coil on our sever that utilize a dragoon.

[Shurrikhan]

From what I've seen Monk and DRG will be about tied at BiS gear in terms of dps, with Nin faintly behind, but Nin makes up for that by having the highest raid dps boost (slightly higher than DRG's with a good Bard). Really, the one that becomes most outdated with gearing would likely be the Monk, depending simply on whether Mantra and Dragon Kick will actually save a nuke- or AoE- heal, conserving mana (and thereby caster and Bard dps, via Foes over Ballad) or keeping the SCH from having to leave Cleric Stance. All in all, they're very, very balanced.

Tldr: Good secondary stat availability on DRG gear and the DRG buff have made a world of difference. They're just fine, and quite balanced if you have a good Bard.

[Krr]

Hell, the main reason DRG wasn't even usable in FCOB was because of their inferior magic resistance and the outrageous amounts of unavoidable magic damage from mega flare, flames of rebirth, et al making them require babysitting, and H-thrust being too hard to maintain due to the positioning requirements of some bosses. That's been fixed by putting their mdef on par with NIN/MNK and making them not need to do impossible/excessively cumbersome positioning in places like T11.

There's few downsides to having a competent DRG now, and a decent (but not auto-pick) upside if you have a kickass BRD.

[Sanguisio]

If they are too worried about bringing a DRG, they are most likely not a good grp and are clutching at straws