Yoshi P, is this what you wanted? (Terra Branford Blues)

[Welsper59]

As said before: look at all those games, where you can not level or gain money/equipment. You can play almost every game for money or other gains, but the majority is playing them for fun. Same with sports. Some are getting paid for it, but most people just do it for fun. There are much better and healthier sports than soccer and co, but people like to play soccer, it's fun. And so on.

What games? Name them please lol. Generic and vague responses do nothing but attempt to save face for the person who can't answer.

You really can't compare an MMORPG to sports. There are many MANY benefits to actually playing a sport compared to playing an MMORPG lol. For starters, there is the health benefits combined with professional athletes making a job out of it. Lots of people play the sport for fun, but again... many additional benefits for doing so. If I need to explain the benefits of playing a sport (and enjoying it) versus playing a video game... mmm... somethings wrong lol. We play games for the reason of fun, that's definitely the same, but what's to keep us with this one specific game if we already obtained everything? In what way would you be able to have fun for months once you (and everyone else) have no reason to stay there specifically?

[Welsper59]

Its easy to see how much ppl hate the current rng contents, just take a look at the Gold Saucer. You can count on your fingers the number of players who are participating in chocobos races or T.T. game.

The queue time for dungeons had increased and i just need to look at my FC rooster to see that less ppl are now online that before.

Players were anticipating alot of fun stuffs from the Gold Saucer while we wait for the expansion but we only got rng from it. No roller coaster shooter, no snowboarding, no skills game.

I agree that some rng are needed, but when it come that 100% of an update is rng, you cant expect players to stick around when you know it will be nerfed. Saving you a ton of boringness and annoyance.

I want to say that you're right, but I can't. The main reason is because you're implying the Gold Saucer was intended to keep people around. In other words, that it was to be the sole reason people would be on the game. I was anticipating it since they announced it in 2013, but even I wasn't deluded enough to think that everyone should/would stay around for it for weeks without end. The Gold Saucer was never intended to remove your presence from the rest of the game. Speaking from a psychological point of view, there is no way in hell that the general player base would ever do just one type of content without hopping to others (which is primarily what's happening). Furthermore... there was the log-in campaign thing for 2 weeks. That's PROBABLY a huge reason you don't see as many people, just saying.

[Madigari]

That's a very generic reply. Care to explain how you would be having fun after you get what you want? Expect them to release new content the next day/week? Actually believe you'd be running the same content for no goal reward/result every day until the next patch update?

Well, if you'd like me to be specific, I'd be more than happy to. The MMO I've had the most fun with was one called Dungeon Fighter Online. They still had RNG attached to the best drops, but there was a system in place to ensure that you could continue progressing even if you didn't have that RNG-based gear. Not to mention, the gameplay was fun and I enjoyed the instances/dungeons without being forced to run them for RNG-based loot; it was entirely optional to the experience if you chose to do that. Not to mention, the gear was actually able to be sold on their market board before it was bound to your character, so even if RNG was denying you the drop, you could still save up and buy the loot from another player. There was still an alternative to RNG that FFXIV doesn't have for most dungeon drops out of fear of supporting RMT (which doesn't seem to be impacting their presence in the game in any way, but that's neither here nor there).

Now, you could say that the cards are optional as well, but even then, the difference is that it was fun to play DFO even when you were grinding RNG-based drops. It isn't fun to run Thornmarch HM for a week straight on XIV; heck, it was barely even fun for the first day. You can only dance alongside the moogles so often before you start hating the animation for dragging out an instance you've already run 10 times that day, and the day before, and the day before that. I get enjoyment from collecting the cards, not from running the primal instances ad nauseum on the hope that RNG finally deigns to save me from my repetitious hell or waiting for 2+ hours for a EX farm party to fill up and disintegrate if it doesn't have good players in it or key members (tank, healer) get their drops and just quit.

As for your constant assertion that "This is how you maintain subscriptions/active playing," that might be true to an extent, but when you start to suffer total burnout because RNG refuses to give up sadism as a lifestyle choice? Not so much anymore. As a few people have pointed out in this thread, the sheer amount of grinding this minigame requires has actually made them second guess staying subscribed. And, to point out again, I was already interested and wanting to enjoy Triple Triad before they revealed/it became apparent how much of a grind it would be to collect the all the non-tournament cards. But now, instead of actually enjoying Triple Triad, here we are, grinding Thornmarch for the eighth day, and seeing the same results as the first seven.

[Welsper59]

Well, if you'd like me to be specific, I'd be more than happy to. The MMO I've had the most fun with was one called Dungeon Fighter Online. They still had RNG attached to the best drops, but there was a system in place to ensure that you could continue progressing even if you didn't have that RNG-based gear. Not to mention, the gameplay was fun and I enjoyed the instances/dungeons without being forced to run them for RNG-based loot; it was entirely optional to the experience if you chose to do that. Not to mention, the gear was actually able to be sold on their market board before it was bound to your character, so even if RNG was denying you the drop, you could still save up and buy the loot from another player. There was still an alternative to RNG that FFXIV doesn't have for most dungeon drops out of fear of supporting RMT (which doesn't seem to be impacting their presence in the game in any way, but that's neither here nor there).

Now, you could say that the cards are optional as well, but even then, the difference is that it was fun to play DFO even when you were grinding RNG-based drops. It isn't fun to run Thornmarch HM for a week straight on XIV; heck, it was barely even fun for the first day. You can only dance alongside the moogles so often before you start hating the animation for dragging out an instance you've already run 10 times that day, and the day before, and the day before that. I get enjoyment from collecting the cards, not from running the primal instances ad nauseum on the hope that RNG finally deigns to save me from my repetitious hell or waiting for 2+ hours for a EX farm party to fill up and disintegrate if it doesn't have good players in it or key members (tank, healer) get their drops and just quit.

As for your constant assertion that "This is how you maintain subscriptions/active playing," that might be true to an extent, but when you start to suffer total burnout because RNG refuses to give up sadism as a lifestyle choice? Not so much anymore. As a few people have pointed out in this thread, the sheer amount of grinding this minigame requires has actually made them second guess staying subscribed. And, to point out again, I was already interested and wanting to enjoy Triple Triad before they revealed/it became apparent how much of a grind it would be to collect the all the non-tournament cards. But now, instead of actually enjoying Triple Triad, here we are, grinding Thornmarch for the eighth day, and seeing the same results as the first seven.

That's all right of a suggestion, but that doesn't answer the question lol. You're indicating methods to obtain goods, which has nothing to do with how you have fun once you acquire everything. My question was exactly that, what keeps you after. Why are people constantly ignoring the question and point at hand? I can't even recall a single person offering a reply/retort to any question I ask without being vague or offering a generic response pertaining to subjective criticisms "bad", "lazy", or "fun"... I'm assuming because they just can't answer it, which is rather bad and shows a lack of insight of what they're stating (meaning its likely not something credible).

For example, I'll try to go step by step about what is happening here. The person I replied to had mentioned F2P games and how you can pay for things to get them right away. How people enjoy getting things. So, my reply was that, it's true that people enjoy getting things. But what's going to keep them around for a long time once they do this? That was my question about that format. What's going to keep people interested, if there's no goal left to achieve when you get what you want. Then you replied about hoping the devs would rely on "fun" to keep people around. You see how generic of a response that is? How little it adds, not to mention how much it degrades your own perspective on things?

If your reply that I'm quoting now is of relevance to that, then we're going all over the place here and you're completely off base. If you'd like a reply regarding the off-subject things you said, then that's fine. Summed up, burn out is preferred evil between boredom and overdoing things. The burn out is definitely real. I've experienced it many times and is largely why I don't even do raids much at all (I've not touched a single EX primal besides Garuda, and that was only like last month). Speaking from a business stance however, which do you think makes them more money? Someone enjoying the game but quits in a few months because they feel accomplished to the extent that they've done everything they want... or someone that eventually burns out after a year or two of playing the game? Keep in mind however, that burnout (or interest in general) can happen regardless of how much/little you play. That's just how whimsical we can be about the things we do as human beings.

On a side note, just for the sake of interest, why aren't you playing DFO anymore?

Edit: I just looked it up. Servers shut down, so that might be it. One thing though... action RPG. You can't really compare the two when it comes to fun lol. Action games are the equivalent of hack and slash or beat-em-up games in most cases. I was expecting an MMORPG similar to FFXIV, WoW, etc as far as an example would be concerned. I mean, that'd be almost like me comparing Dragon's Crown to this game.

[RobinRethiel]

What games? Name them please lol. Generic and vague responses do nothing but attempt to save face for the person who can't answer.

You really can't compare an MMORPG to sports. There are many MANY benefits to actually playing a sport compared to playing an MMORPG lol. For starters, there is the health benefits combined with professional athletes making a job out of it. Lots of people play the sport for fun, but again... many additional benefits for doing so. If I need to explain the benefits of playing a sport (and enjoying it) versus playing a video game... mmm... somethings wrong lol. We play games for the reason of fun, that's definitely the same, but what's to keep us with this one specific game if we already obtained everything? In what way would you be able to have fun for months once you (and everyone else) have no reason to stay there specifically?

Sorry, but really: can't or don't want your think yourself? Thousands of games work this way. Every RTS works this way. Most shooters do. And so on. And MMORPG are not RPGs, where you got a limited story, they can have all kind of elements of every game.

Many people do sports for fun, if it would be for health, there would be many better options than something like soccer and co.

And 95%+ are not those ultra grinders, who do everything in a week, being bored afterwards. That's the main argument you don't get. For those you could easily implement some useless stuff, like the same in gold for 10 time the prize. Absolutely pointless to create content for these people or even worse, to link the whole design to them. You will create a game for a kind of "nerdish" minority, while you could easily create one for the majority of normal gamers with some insanely expensive extra stuff for those "i need my grind" guys.

[Welsper59]

Sorry, but really: can't or don't want your think yourself? Thousands of games work this way. Every RTS works this way. Most shooters do. And so on. And MMORPG are not RPGs, where you got a limited story, they can have all kind of elements of every game.

Many people do sports for fun, if it would be for health, there would be many better options than something like soccer and co.

And 95%+ are not those ultra grinders, who do everything in a week, being bored afterwards. That's the main argument you don't get. For those you could easily implement some useless stuff, like the same in gold for 10 time the prize. Absolutely pointless to create content for these people or even worse, to link the whole design to them. You will create a game for a kind of "nerdish" minority, while you could easily create one for the majority of normal gamers with some insanely expensive extra stuff for those "i need my grind" guys.

I can't think of them, hence why I ask. So, please... share with me what these games are lol. Seriously, I really don't know what games you're referring to. So unless you're trying to save face, please answer my question. Call me an idiot if you want because of it, but I really need you to enlighten me on this one. This has shifted me from disturbed to legitimately curious. Side note on that: why are you diving into other genre of game when we're talking about MMORPGs? That'd be like me saying Sudoku is awesome and this game sucks because it's not designed around it.

Also, you're just responding with exactly what I said about sports and people doing them for the fun of it (along with any additional benefits)... WTF is going on in this thread? LOL! There's so much logically wrong here, it's very disturbing, yet entertaining simultaneously.

[JaydeDancer]

Wow, you are very dedicated! I ran WoD like, 5 times and now I go in there grudgingly because I still want BRD pants. I absolutely HATE Stone Vigil, and I have only run it 3 times in the last year and a half. . . I could never do what you did.

[RobinRethiel]

Also, you're just responding with exactly what I said about sports and people doing them for the fun of it (along with any additional benefits)... WTF is going on in this thread? LOL! There's so much logically wrong here, it's very disturbing, yet entertaining simultaneously.

Sorry, I can understand every single post here, but yours. That you are unable to even think of one of those thousands of games which got no leveling elements is... fascinating. I gave you whole genres...

[Welsper59]

Sorry, I can understand every single post here, but yours. That you are unable to even think of one of those thousands of games which got no leveling elements is... fascinating. I gave you whole genres...

Continue evading the question, I really don't expect much else. But yeah, I think we'll just end it there. You can continue spouting things in other threads without evidence, but I'd rather not continue to derail this topic, which may cause a mod to close it, since it does provide a good idea about RNG and the potential negative impact from the OP.

[LandricFrey]

Welp, it happened. After 3 weeks, a ballpark 650-700 kills, and 145 Ultros cards, Terra dropped for me tonight.

I mostly stayed patient but sometimes lost my cool. I questioned my sanity, my faith, my life choices, and at one point I even submitted a bug report.

Why do you do this to yourself? Truly you can't be having fun. It must just seem like a mind-numbing job to do what you've done. The OP along with the Fenrir mount thread OP's actions eerily resembling that of those suffering from severe addiction. In no way am I ridiculing these individuals; there's nothing funny about addiction. Take a step back and ask yourselves if your lives are any fuller since you've acquired those virtual items.

On the topic of RNG: I agree the RNG obsession SE is running with is insane, but the reality is that subscriptions are steadily rising despite the rage. To them it must seem like a winning strategy and I don't see them letting up any time soon.