Thread: Specialist System in 3.0

No, I believe the lack of market activity in this game is simply the consequence of a huge design flaw on SE's part to create a consistent, consumable gil sink.

Reason WoW's AH is so active was because most people needed to buy whatever they needed on a weekly basis and it was the accepted norm to do so. How many people do you see in this game that brings potions/elixirs/whatever else into dungeons or raids?

Also, WoW had a way of keeping the general prices down with a simplified crafting system, so people had to account less for the actual crafting service and tack on a slight fee above material costs. IN ff14, I see 300-400% profit as the norm and I understand why, it takes so much time and is somewhat skill based (i.e. people who researched 3-4 star rotations properly will hit 95-100% hq with it, vs. people who don't will have trouble to get above 70%).

Of course, we can't compare the two fairly, WoW does have much bigger servers and it encourages everyone to have at least 2 crafting classes so everyone's involved in the market. Where as, in ff14, the player base is smaller and most don't participate in the MB.

I think what the devs are trying to do, is draw in more people to crafting by "casualizing" it, but the crafting system in ff14 is inherently hard core. (gathering, crafting, gearing for the two, every bit of it)


P.S. I do agree that we need more crafters in this game to create a healthy market board.. I just don't believe specialization will actually do that.
I think what we need is to show the incentives to have money in this game.. Some people are simply clueless as to how to make gil and carry below 1 million gil throughout their entire gaming experience here.. Some are simply uninterested because there's not much to spend the money on.. In either case, if we introduced more gil sinks that rewarded hoarding gil, I think we'll see an influx of new crafters.

I believe that's also the reason some of the high-end crafters can amass so much damn wealth.. Not because they're being stingy with it, but because there's just nothing to spend the money on.. In the past week, I've given away 2 artisan's aprons, 1 ice barding, and 2 artisan off hands (to friends of course, I'm not THAT generous) AND bought enough mats to make 2 inferno weapons (about 5m total) yet, I still somehow made it all back and more in the week since then..

It's actually starting to annoy me that gil in this game feels a lot like the how gold was in Diablo 2.. Repair bill, use for a little bit of gambling.. then nothing else, you just stockpile and let it sit.. I didn't get into crafting just so I could make gil and sit on it

Originally Posted by Gillionaire

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Don't get me wrong, I'm not looking to argue with you for the sake of arguing. I think that specialization will have the opposite effect that you think. Yes, people will be hard core and level alts, it's inevitable, unavoidable, and already being done. However, I think pulling back to a WoWish style where most people have a couple crafters capped (assuming specialization circumvents the necessity to ding 50 on all 8 crafters) I think you will see more people crafting and as a result making money they can spend.

The other problem is a recipe patch gets released, you have the handful of crafters that have pools of money that can afford to dump everything into getting the recipes unlocked ASAP and then within the first few weeks most of the demand for the gear has been met because of how irrelevant the combat gear is. The only gear that really sells consistently after a patch is artisan/forager gear which makes crafting sound more like a pyramid scheme than anything else.

Originally Posted by Sibyll

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Oh I understand that, we're just speculating different things to happen once expansion hits.. and I've not felt any hostility in the forums for the most part.
and I completely agree with your latter point, I've said it on the forums before.. on the MB money just flows from one crafter to another in circles and that's something I would like to see changed.. But if a recipe patch gets rolled out and I have the means to capitalize on it, I probably will without hesitation KNOWING that I'm contributing to the problem.. It's a catch 22.. that's why I think we need new ways to spend money in this game

Originally Posted by Gillionaire

It's actually starting to annoy me that gil in this game feels a lot like the how gold was in Diablo 2.. Repair bill, use for a little bit of gambling.. then nothing else, you just stockpile and let it sit.. I didn't get into crafting just so I could make gil and sit on it

I disagree with that. There's a certain something to looking at your gil count and seeing an 8 number figure.

Originally Posted by Sibyll

However, I think pulling back to a WoWish style where most people have a couple crafters capped (assuming specialization circumvents the necessity to ding 50 on all 8 crafters) I think you will see more people crafting and as a result making money they can spend.

Hmmm, personally I would dislike that. Not the thought of having more people craft; but the thought that everyone takes a one or two crafting classes because it's easy to level and to do. It would trivialise crafting as a class, I feel.
In WoW nearly everyone had maxed professions, and many had all of them maxed. There was no effort involved in doing so.
I don't think WoWs system can really compare to FFXIV with or without specialisation because of that lack of effort.

That said, I don't see how crafting can take that direction with specialization, as people would still have to level the classes (perhaps all of them) to 60. How is that any different from what it is like now?

If crafting equipment becomes specific to classes again, as well as abilities that would make it a lot easier for someone new to it to jump in. But that would have the side effect of making crafting a lot less interesting to those already into it, as a large part of the fun in crafting is using all those different abilities.

Originally Posted by Aeyis

I disagree with that. There's a certain something to looking at your gil count and seeing an 8 number figure.

I've been sitting on 9 digits for a while now.. you get desensitized after a while..


Which is why I'm looking forward to the fc airships so much.. I want something to spend money on that I actually want..

Originally Posted by Gillionaire

I've been sitting on 9 digits for a while now.. you get desensitized after a while..

After reading you craft 10+ hours a day and your name, I though you'd have said 11 xD

Wonder if anyone has hit 10bil yet.

Originally Posted by Aeyis

Hmmm, personally I would dislike that. Not the thought of having more people craft; but the thought that everyone takes a one or two crafting classes because it's easy to level and to do. It would trivialise crafting as a class, I feel.
In WoW nearly everyone had maxed professions, and many had all of them maxed. There was no effort involved in doing so.
I don't think WoWs system can really compare to FFXIV with or without specialisation because of that lack of effort.

I don't want them to trivialize crafting. I want them to make it so a person that wants to be just an Alchemist or Culinarian for raiding need only level those. Considering a hard core raider only needs to level their main class to 50 and maybe one or two others classes to 30ish I don't see why this is such a stretch. I'm sure there are plenty of crafters out there that haven't gotten into it because they don't want to level 8 classes just to play the one or two that they actually want to max out.

Originally Posted by Aeyis

That said, I don't see how crafting can take that direction with specialization, as people would still have to level the classes (perhaps all of them) to 60. How is that any different from what it is like now?

If crafting equipment becomes specific to classes again, as well as abilities that would make it a lot easier for someone new to it to jump in. But that would have the side effect of making crafting a lot less interesting to those already into it, as a large part of the fun in crafting is using all those different abilities.

Specializations could be analogous to Jobs where you can cross class with 2 of the other DoH classes. Given how the system works now this wouldn't work but if the Specialization skills are designed around this concept it could very much be workable. The advantages to this is that each Specialization could play different similar to how Scholar and White Mage play differently and Warrior and Paladin play different even though they are the same role. This would mean that being a Carpenter and being a Goldsmith requires a different approach to raising the quality bar and handling Excellent/Good procs instead of the 8 DoH classes being homogenized to doing the exactly same strategy with the exact same skill set.

Looking at how many useless skills the crafting classes have, I think there is a lot of room for improvement. I mean, how often do you actually use Standard and Advanced Touch in end-game crafting?

Originally Posted by Sibyll

Looking at how many useless skills the crafting classes have, I think there is a lot of room for improvement. I mean, how often do you actually use Standard and Advanced Touch in end-game crafting?

All the time, especially for my last touch before BB if I have the CP to blow but not enough for a Manipulation. GS + ST can be really nice right before GS + BB, if you have 64 more CP than you need. My 15 step 100% (even on poor BB) rotation for 1-2*s also uses AT to great effect, but I don't think that's what you mean.

EDIT: I've even used Observe to great effect (14-17 CP more than needed for BB, GS with 2 turns left, Normal condition - Observed, condition changed to Good). There really aren't that many completely useless skills, just Flawless Synthesis, though some people swear by it for low level elemental synths. There are, however, some skills so situational they're really not good, like Flawless and the Brands.

Originally Posted by Nyalia

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I used Observe a lot during Master II Books. Observe has a clear reason to exist. Basic Touch, to a limited extent, does as a more reliable alternative to Hasty Touch if you are getting a lot of TotT procs. Standard and Advanced Touch are incredibly niche. The example you gave is basically the only time I use it as well, and it's rare that happens. There are a lot of "IFs" that need to be met for those to be useful which begs the question why did they even bother having these abilities in the first place.

I agree, Flawless and Brands are very pointless. However, if you could take another cross class skill for dumping Standard/Advanced Touch you probably would. When I have so much free CP that I would use these skills in a 4* recipe I generally already know I'd hit 100% without it.