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  1. #61
    Player
    Judge_Xero's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Ul'dah
    Posts
    2,228
    Character
    Divine Gate
    World
    Exodus
    Main Class
    Marauder Lv 60
    Quote Originally Posted by Havenchild View Post
    The current build you use as well as execution of skills will be key for it. I also heavily consider it a rotation thing. I tried the start with Bio thing + Ifrit and I always parse lower with it. If it is infact a better opener as you say, then I'd like to hear your exact opener skill for skill all the way till your third Fester, that is resulting in this DPS increase that's noticeable. If through testing it is in fact a better opener then what I'm currently doing then I can go slightly higher on these 3min tests.

    Doing the Bio2 - Miasma - Bio setup open, I am reaching the same consistently with this build: http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/PZI3. 369 is the lowest I usually wind up on. Highest was probably 378-380ish on a crit friendly run. It tends to stay in the 370-375 area subject to crits.
    I will try the different opener to see if it helps, but it's hard to imagine that changing my order of casts and not getting that second Bio under Raging Strikes would actually increase my DPS.
    I can understand that you would do much more damage than me considering your gearset.

    Sunako - http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/QEWG
    Judge - http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/QGDR
    HavenChild - http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/PZI3

    But Sunako and I are nearly identical other than ~ 2% Crit Rate and I have more Spell Speed, yet they can pull amazing IMO damage. (*** I have to swap gear around for FCOB for accuracy till I get that stupid Casting Hat)

    My Opener. Ifrit Placed next to the Dummy in a position where I don't turn away when using pet buffs)

    Shadow Flare (activate AA near the end of the cast)
    RS, B, Rouse/Spur, M (Crimson Cyclone), B2 (Flaming Crush), R2 + Fester + Enkindle, Ruin, Ruin, Ruin, B + Fester (waiting for ~1/2 before Fester so that Bio registers), Ruin, Ruin, Ruin, SC SF (fester + Aether Flow), M, B2

    That's about it.

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Edited

    Tried Opening with RS, B2, M, B, SC SF but the most I could get was 345 (SMN Only) just over 3 minutes.
    (0)
    Last edited by Judge_Xero; 04-22-2015 at 04:57 AM.
    "I don't always drink beer, but when I do, it's often."
    Temp Forum Ban - July 7th 2016 *** I promise to never call out scrub players again due to it causing a toxic community

  2. #62
    Player
    Sunako's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Posts
    1,299
    Character
    Sunako Kirishiki
    World
    Phoenix
    Main Class
    Summoner Lv 70
    Quote Originally Posted by Havenchild View Post
    I only Ruin 2, when Fester / Aetherflow is about to come up or before Rouse or Spur is to be applied, which is technically the "optimal" way of playing ? iirc

    I'm doing all you just said, nothing is accounting for that much of a difference lol

    Are you using Ruin I instead when you're about to use Fester? Because outside of that I can't see anything else. Some people occasionally do that.

    The answer to this I would agree is definitely Ruin 2, but just not sure what should be done different that's still "optimal" I suppose.
    This is pretty much my smn rotatio if you find something difference from your rotatio.

    RS - > bio2 -> miasma -> bio -> swiftcast -> wait until bio register -> fester -> shadow flare -> spur - > rouse - > ruin2 -> enkindle -> ruin - > ruin2 -> fester -> ruin - > bio -> miasma -> ruin2 -> fester -> aetherflow -> bio2 -> ruin -> ruin -> shadow flare - > bio -> fester -> ruin -> ruin -> miasma -> ruin -> ruin -> ruin -> bio -> fester -> bio2 -> ruin -> ruin -> shadow flare -> miasma -> bio -> rouse -> fester -> ruin-> ruin -> ruin -> ruin -> ruin -> bio2 -> bio -> atherflow -> fester -> miasma -> shadow flare -> ruin -> ruin -> ruin - > bio - > fester -> miasma -> bio2 -> ruin -> ruin -> bio -> swiftcast -> fester -> shadow flare -> spur -> ruin2 -> rouse ->ruin
    (0)

  3. #63
    Player
    Havenchild's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    Gridania
    Posts
    600
    Character
    Avalen Koma
    World
    Gilgamesh
    Main Class
    Arcanist Lv 80
    Quote Originally Posted by Judge_Xero View Post

    My Opener. Ifrit Placed next to the Dummy in a position where I don't turn away when using pet buffs)

    Shadow Flare (activate AA near the end of the cast)
    RS, B, Rouse/Spur, M (Crimson Cyclone), B2 (Flaming Crush), R2 + Fester + Enkindle, Ruin, Ruin, Ruin, B + Fester (waiting for ~1/2 before Fester so that Bio registers), Ruin, Ruin, Ruin, SC SF (fester + Aether Flow), M, B2

    That's about it.

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Edited

    Tried Opening with RS, B2, M, B, SC SF but the most I could get was 345 (SMN Only) just over 3 minutes.
    Looking at your opener, I think this is where I take the slight MP hit I was discussing with Sunako, I use no Ruin I's in my opener. My stance on SMN opening is that you first burst as high as possible within those first three Aetherflow stacks because you start ticking down after that 3rd Fester. This means expanded usage on instant cast skills and Ruin II during the opener to get more auto-attacks in which is a noticeable boost I found out about in T9 originally. To me it just looks like your missing out on a lot of auto attacks in that opener.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sunako View Post
    This is pretty much my smn rotatio if you find something difference from your rotatio.

    RS - > bio2 -> miasma -> bio -> swiftcast -> wait until bio register -> fester -> shadow flare -> spur - > rouse - > ruin2 -> enkindle -> ruin - > ruin2 -> fester -> ruin - > bio -> miasma -> ruin2 -> fester -> aetherflow -> bio2 -> ruin -> ruin -> shadow flare - > bio -> fester -> ruin -> ruin -> miasma -> ruin -> ruin -> ruin -> bio -> fester -> bio2 -> ruin -> ruin -> shadow flare -> miasma -> bio -> rouse -> fester -> ruin-> ruin -> ruin -> ruin -> ruin -> bio2 -> bio -> atherflow -> fester -> miasma -> shadow flare -> ruin -> ruin -> ruin - > bio - > fester -> miasma -> bio2 -> ruin -> ruin -> bio -> swiftcast -> fester -> shadow flare -> spur -> ruin2 -> rouse ->ruin
    So from what I can tell, you are largely not firing off Fester when it comes off cd (which requires the use of Ruin II), but instead holding it till when you have to reapply Bio, every 18 or so seconds which fits in with the Aetherflow timer. The real difference between what you are doing then and what I am besides just the MP, is that in a fight where MP isn't an issue, I'm just getting more auto-attacks.

    However, fights where movements are required, how do you handle a recast of Bio2 or Miasma when swiftcast isn't an option? Do you ruin II if its badly timed with your consistent casting then try to cast your DoT? or if you were about to Ruin I do you interrupt that cast with a Ruin II? That's the only issue I see doing what you currently do , since you don't have that oGCD per 10 seconds to handle mechanics that require movement or just to reposition yourself for optimal circumstances. T11, I would use as an example here.

    A lot of mechanics I find, line up well with SMN skill usage per 10 seconds, so curious about how you handle those situations that doesn't impact your DPS negatively.
    (0)
    Last edited by Havenchild; 04-22-2015 at 10:27 AM.

  4. #64
    Player
    Sunako's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Posts
    1,299
    Character
    Sunako Kirishiki
    World
    Phoenix
    Main Class
    Summoner Lv 70
    Quote Originally Posted by Havenchild View Post
    A lot of mechanics I find, line up well with SMN skill usage per 10 seconds, so curious about how you handle those situations that doesn't impact your DPS negatively.
    Not sure do I understand your question but I just try position myself every 18 sec during I apply bio. If I need extra movements, I will replace one of my ruin casts for the ruin2. I also save my mana depends on fight. In final coil i put more effort into it since mana control was pretty important at the begin of 2.4. Now you can do pretty much what ever you want.
    (0)

  5. #65
    Player
    Judge_Xero's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Ul'dah
    Posts
    2,228
    Character
    Divine Gate
    World
    Exodus
    Main Class
    Marauder Lv 60
    Yeah I guess I should use more R2 during my opener since RS is also giving my AA damage a hefty boost.
    Maybe I'll even coordinate that with any time I have RS up in fights. Gotta make the most of it lol.
    (0)

  6. #66
    Player
    Evtrai's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Posts
    203
    Character
    Yukari Hana
    World
    Balmung
    Main Class
    Summoner Lv 60
    So I have a question, I have been slowly lurking this thread, as I leveled and geared up SMN, but, are these last estimations on the openings include food buffs and pots?

    I gotta admit, after playing MNK as a main since release, for raiding and what not, and decided I might want a change of play for Heavensward and wanted to opt for SMN in the hopes it might get improved in their downsides, but SMN's rotations are more... complicated, and more atention required than MNK, or DRG (lol), NIN, can't really comment on BLM because I haven't played it, but yeah, I find SMN a bit overwhelming rotation wise, easy to get a huge drop on DPS on a few mistakes.
    (0)
    Last edited by Evtrai; 04-22-2015 at 01:51 PM.

  7. #67
    Player
    Crescent_Dusk's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Posts
    328
    Character
    Crescent Dusk
    World
    Exodus
    Main Class
    Arcanist Lv 50
    Quote Originally Posted by Evtrai View Post
    So I have a question, I have been slowly lurking this thread, as I leveled and geared up SMN, but, are these last estimations on the openings include food buffs and pots?
    I gotta admit, after playing MNK as a main since release, for raiding and what not, and decided I might want a change of play for Heavensward and wanted to opt for SMN in the hopes it might get improved in their downsides, but SMN's rotations are more... complicated, and more atention required than MNK, or DRG (lol), NIN, can't really comment on BLM because I haven't played it, but yeah, I find SMN a bit overwhelming rotation wise, easy to get a huge drop on DPS on a few mistakes.
    What? You virtually just keep all your dots on a target alongside shadowflare and fester with every dot reapplication cycle. Use Spur and Rouse on cd unless you know you're gonna need tthem coupled with an enkindle to burst something down. Bane to AoE.

    How is that any more difficult than cycling 2 skillsets on a monk (dragon kick, fangs, demolish>bootshine>true strike>sucker punch plus managing touch of death, several of those combos have discordant positions so you continually have to change degrees around the mob and hope the tank doesn't jerk them around to your detriment), and an aoe rotation that's gated by stances unless you blow perfect balance? Maybe I don't play monk as much, but BLM and SMN seem far easier rotation wise than a class where you need to time your stances properly because unlike a summoner where you can apply your dots at will, if you erroneously use sucker punch instead of demolish and demolish falls off, you have to wait 2 globals to even apply demolish.

    The only real challenge I ever saw with summoner as a class is babysitting the Ifrit egi. Summoner is basically a simpler WoW affliction warlock for the most part. It seems like there's far less room to butcher your dps with a mistake akin to botching up the mudra or using the wrong skill of a stance or using a skill without the proper positional requirement.
    (0)
    Last edited by Crescent_Dusk; 04-22-2015 at 02:19 PM.

  8. #68
    Player
    Fireselecta's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2015
    Posts
    31
    Character
    Kyoshiro Senpai
    World
    Phoenix
    Main Class
    Arcanist Lv 60
    Quote Originally Posted by Crescent_Dusk View Post
    How is that any more difficult than cycling 2 skillsets on a monk
    Well, honestly, i've tried all DPS classes, and i can easily say that personnally, Monk AND Summoner are the two hardest class to play. Cause in one hand, for those classes, you can easily have a correct DPS (even if you are doing shit like using one wrong skill of a stance or using Ruin1 instead of Ruin2, you DPS will not drop that much). In the other hand, if you aim to maximise your DPS with those two classes, things are way much harder.

    Loosing too many ticks of your DoTs during the fight (or re-applying your DoTs too early) and yes your DPS will drop, struggling too much to use your pet and its DPS will drop, don't use an optimal rotation while you're moving and it will drops even harder....

    I don't diss any classes, but it's a fact that being a really good SMN or MNK is harder that being a really good DRG, NIN, BRD, BLM. It's only my opinion though
    (0)

  9. #69
    Player Sanguisio's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Posts
    591
    Character
    Sanguisio Alorea
    World
    Phoenix
    Main Class
    Goldsmith Lv 50
    Quote Originally Posted by Crescent_Dusk View Post
    snip
    It is easy to do meh dps on SMN, but to really push your DPS on a SMN you need to plan ahead so much more than any other class imo, our dmg is tied to DOTs and AFs. whereas the dps from other classes are dealt in the moment.
    (0)

  10. #70
    Player
    Havenchild's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    Gridania
    Posts
    600
    Character
    Avalen Koma
    World
    Gilgamesh
    Main Class
    Arcanist Lv 80
    Quote Originally Posted by Crescent_Dusk View Post
    What? You virtually just keep all your dots on a target alongside shadowflare and fester with every dot reapplication cycle. Use Spur and Rouse on cd unless you know you're gonna need tthem coupled with an enkindle to burst something down. Bane to AoE.

    How is that any more difficult than cycling 2 skillsets on a monk (dragon kick, fangs, demolish>bootshine>true strike>sucker punch plus managing touch of death, several of those combos have discordant positions so you continually have to change degrees around the mob and hope the tank doesn't jerk them around to your detriment), and an aoe rotation that's gated by stances unless you blow perfect balance? Maybe I don't play monk as much, but BLM and SMN seem far easier rotation wise than a class where you need to time your stances properly because unlike a summoner where you can apply your dots at will, if you erroneously use sucker punch instead of demolish and demolish falls off, you have to wait 2 globals to even apply demolish.

    The only real challenge I ever saw with summoner as a class is babysitting the Ifrit egi. Summoner is basically a simpler WoW affliction warlock for the most part. It seems like there's far less room to butcher your dps with a mistake akin to botching up the mudra or using the wrong skill of a stance or using a skill without the proper positional requirement.
    I am sorry but you either have no idea what you're talking about or you are pushing very very average DPS. SMN is by far the most complicated class to maximize on at current. Anyone who says just keep DoTs up, is definitely from the outside looking in and is not a SMN main, much less a sub. You need to know a fight as much as a healer would imo to maximize.

    Quote Originally Posted by Evtrai View Post
    So I have a question, I have been slowly lurking this thread, as I leveled and geared up SMN, but, are these last estimations on the openings include food buffs and pots?

    I gotta admit, after playing MNK as a main since release, for raiding and what not, and decided I might want a change of play for Heavensward and wanted to opt for SMN in the hopes it might get improved in their downsides, but SMN's rotations are more... complicated, and more atention required than MNK, or DRG (lol), NIN, can't really comment on BLM because I haven't played it, but yeah, I find SMN a bit overwhelming rotation wise, easy to get a huge drop on DPS on a few mistakes.
    They were attempts without Food, Party or Potions. Things like Raging Strikes used of course. As a SMN, throughout the entire fight you are in a decline after your opener, with the only way to move back up are when more mobs are added into the mix. Because of this every decision is pivotal to staying high, from managing your Aetherflow stacks (usage between Fester, Mana Drain and Bane), to clipping your DoTs at the appropriate times, managing your pet skills and positioning either yourself or the pet and getting in auto attacks as many times as possible. Any of these things will impact your DPS by noticeable amounts if preformed inefficiently. Every little thing counts so much more on this SMN class then any other. Think of holding up a ceiling that's slowly closing in on you.
    (4)
    Last edited by Havenchild; 04-22-2015 at 09:47 PM.

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