Why bring MNK to anything anymore?

[siverstorm]

snip

Tell me the mandatory GL losses that aren't manageable by keeping PB ready for it. PB gives you 3 GCDs to get back up each GCD faster than the last, DRG needs 4 normal time GCDs to get back into the rotation. (I'll agree you should wait B4B out so you don't waste it, thus was a moot point on my end)

Getting rid of rng losses, T10 is 100% uptime, T11 is 100% uptime, you might lose it once on the transition to bennu phase on t12 and you'd lose it on the jumps in the last phase, but again once you're built up, the damage from a monk is steady plus you'll have at least one PB for those losses. T13 is lost at the start of the add phase and your group should be leaving a gust up for you to maintain stacks going into the last phase.

T12 is the only fight where monks can take a significant hit however, since you also mentioned the current ilvl of players, you shouldn't see that second jump. Falling back to my previous post these fights are long enough that the sustained monk damage shines. And this point about DK and mantra being useless is really moot, you people are making it sound like your group wants to kick you now that everyone's geared (spoiler alert: megaflares still dickpunch you real hard with only storms path up).

EDIT:
since it's already been said I'll just add the quote here:

So it's simply some fights that aren't catered to monk is all ? Like how some fights favor Blm over Smn or Smn over Blm.

[Umbrax]

EDIT: TL;DR melees are balanced in the current meta and some monks just can't handle.

Seems like you just don't understand what I said.

If a drg loses B4B uptime the hit to their dps is as bad as a monk losing GL.

This definitely made me laugh. With GL3 I was talking about game "fault", not human. Even tho, if this were true, why would you pop B4B with Megaflare/Earthshaker coming? Honestly it seems like you don't know how to play your own job, I don't think you could talk about how MNK works.

[siverstorm]

Seems like you just don't understand what I said.

You're mad that there's competition now for top dps, I understand perfectly well. If you dislike that every fight isn't catered to GL why play monk? I could see your argument if monk was bottom of the parses every single time, but that's far from the case.

And I did amend in a followup comment that it was silly of me to bring up B4B.

[Deithwen]

Yes 100% uptime on T10, but still with that a ninja/dragoon will do better at the same level.
T11 : last phase screws your positionals, you can't avoid that. Either side or behind (exept a few moments when you don't have to pack)
T12 : Well last dodge phase can be an issue, but it's okay in general
T13 : dives screws 3 GL3, one can be avoided with a gust yes, the other with PB but you will always lose one with no PB up.

These are just examples ^^ the main issue is that not only Monk can't reach the same dps as Nin/Drg on the ideal conditions, but we get a significant loss due to mecanics as well, enlarging the gap. We're not talking about a huge dps difference, but comparable to 5ilvs on a weapon.

[Umbrax]

Tell me the mandatory GL losses that aren't manageable by keeping PB ready for it.

There is just one case in FCoB that you would be never be able to keep GL3. And that's turn 13, after first set of divebombs we lose GL3 obviously. After second set of divebombs we lose GL3 obviously and here is where I use PB and not lose charges until Bahamut is dead, if played perfectly.

EDIT: you can save GL3 by pushing dps until first divebomb set with 3rd dragon alive and dpsing the dragon while dodging divebombs. Even tho, this is not something every party can execute. So with this MKNs would not lose GL3 in turn 13 or FCoB, but ofc, your party and you have to play perfectly and make weird things only because of the MNK. Man, I love MNK just because of this.

[Almalexia]

These are just examples ^^ the main issue is that not only Monk can't reach the same dps as Nin/Drg on the ideal conditions, but we get a significant loss due to mecanics as well, enlarging the gap. We're not talking about a huge dps difference, but comparable to 5ilvs on a weapon.

When the battle team creates content, they do not tailor it in a way to disenfranchise monks. We've had three different endgame raids so far, but one thing is consistent about the final encounter for each: putting every job's strength on display through a series of independent trials.

If you look at an entire 11-14 minute encounter and say "MNK loses GL3 here; therefore, they are inadequate" then you could similarly dismiss BLM when there's nothing to AoE, or dismiss DRG because parts of the encounter go on for too long without transitional add segments to burst.

Could you imagine if t5/9/13 were each made of a single, uninterrupted encounter a la t8? We would have people making a thread like this for the opposite reason.

And yet there are players who exceed expectations of their jobs: BLMs who who rival MNK in t8, MNKs who top the charts in t9, DRG who don't KO even once. Is it magic? A bad parser? Does everyone else just suck?

[Deithwen]

@Umbrax : yeah well I don't want to bother my team leaving a dragon alive just for me :3 gusts are a different story though ^^

@Almalexia : This is not my point at all. In addition to this, your last statement is irrelevant, since it is biased by taking skill into consideration.

EDIT : to clarify a bit. I'm not saying fight mecanics are bad, I'm talking about raw numbers. To sum up (and also reapeat myself) : The issue is : Monk can't achieve the same dps as Nin/Drg on ideal conditions+ is more affected by mecanics than these two jobs. The combination of these two is the issue.

[Spayd]

Even tho, if this were true, why would you pop B4B with Megaflare/Earthshaker coming? Honestly it seems like you don't know how to play your own job, I don't think you could talk about how MNK works.

Because some melee have a pld to cover their ass or just don't suck and Weave the earthshakers to pull more dps. There's always a strat to keep dps go, and so there is for GL3 when you think there's not. Yes there's moment where you'll lose your GL, the same there's moment drg and nin can and will lose buffs too. Just need to deal with this the best you can, you seem to underestimate human being's capacity to adapt to situation. That being said, MNK is fine as it is right now, with great utility and dps, and let's say it, double mnk is just violent.

[Almalexia]

@Almalexia : This is not my point at all. In addition to this, your last statement is irrelevant, since it is biased by taking skill into consideration.

EDIT : to clarify a bit. I'm not saying fight mecanics are bad, I'm talking about raw numbers. To sum up (and also reapeat myself) : The issue is : Monk can't achieve the same dps as Nin/Drg on ideal conditions+ is more affected by mecanics than these two jobs. The combination of these two is the issue.

Forgive me for being dumb. I'll break it down into smaller chunks so I can digest it easier:

Monk can't achieve the same dps as Nin/Drg on ideal conditions

Give me max SS gear, Selene, a pet MNK for DK, a NIN or BRD for TP and a big, meaty mob who has no business turning. Now, show me another DPS who can beat me under their "ideal conditions." This is a bogus claim, anyway; even the monk-friendliest encounter might bind you in a shitty place and you'll lose a positional or two. There are no ideal conditions outside of Mist.
I'm not being consistent with my own points. A BLM would crush a MNK when there are enough targets to AoE, and in 30s a DRG will crush a MNK in burst DPS. There is no good sense in arguing ideal conditions because different DPS have different ideals. The endgame encounters are built with this in mind.

is more affected by mecanics than these two jobs.

It's important for us to consider two kinds of mechanics that interfere with GL:

Rapid phase transitions like t5 snakes, t9 golems and t13 dragons do not exist to sabotage monks but to let burst jobs burst and AoE jobs AoE. If every boss fight were a contiguous 11m encounter, MNK would handily beat everybody. The last raid of 2.0 consists of two 550k HP chunks separated by a 3-minute add intermission; if this doesn't scream balanced party of burst and sustained DPS then I don't know what else to tell you.

Boss gimmicks (conflags, tethers, flares, wiggly wooglies) when properly fulfilled by the MNK/PT, very rarely sap GL. In fact, losing GL frequently on these mechanics is a good litmus test for poor execution. Can the circles/adds come closer? Do you need to disengage so soon, or run that far away? Are other DPS pulling their weight? etc. etc. This is where player skill has a mitigating effect. To say this is "biased" is to contradict your own claim about ideal situations--ideally, the MNK would know the encounter inside and out.

I hope I understood your point well enough to properly illustrate why it is bad.

[Deithwen]

That's a good answer. I agree with you, and you're right in what you say/write. But my point is slightly different. (I'm sorry if I can't explain myself properly, english is not my native language ^^' )

first of all I don't take blm or other DPS jobs into consideration, i'm talking about melees, in a Raid scenario
To be more precise, I considerideal conditions to be, let's say, a situation when Dragoon, Ninja and Monk can dps at their maximum, like a dummy (so single target without things to do other than rotation)
I am also looking at dps numbers on a whole fight.


Now I'll detail my point by comparing with different scenarios Monk, Nin and dragoon :

-We agree that Monk specialty is Single target and is weaker when it comes to aoes (expept with PB). Dragoon is a bit better and I'd say roughly equal as monk.
The numbers are not that different, so it's not a big deal over the whole fight. Monk, Dragoon and ninja are single target specialists.

-Regarding single target DPS, where no mecanics are involved (ie what I call ideal conditions for Monk, Ninja, Dragoon) : Ninja will suprass monks (I assure you, it will) Ninja dps is, as we speak , the best on a single target. regarding Dragoon, it's on par with monk

-Regarding single target DPS with mecanics based on doging and positioning : Typically the megaflares or tethers in T11. Monk can't do it's positionals, Ninja can dps normally (minus one skill off gcd), Dragoon can dps normally (minus 2 skills I think).

-Phases transistions : Ninja ready to full dps after 2 skills without slashing damages (minor dps loss), Dragoon need to put disembowel, Monk needs to build up stacks or use PB is available Still has to put DK and TS anyway so at least 5GCDs with PB, 9 without.

-Everything else which is mecanics based, or RNG : same for everyone if well played.

I understand what you call rapid phase transitions. I don't consider them to be a problem for monks at all since their short and not ideal dps situations for everyone. But I assure you that a monk would not beat everyone handily on a 11m dummy fight. Ninja would, then Dragoon or Monk depending on crits and so.

This is what I'm trying to show ^^ nad I hope you can see what I mean :3