Why bring MNK to anything anymore?

[siverstorm]

Lol, this is a first for me.

"Pfft, l2p scrub. Your deeps are so bad, check out my parse... from some other person, on another server, in another guild, that I don't know."

I think I'm starting to blur the line between posts here and reddit XD

[MrCookTM]

My group did progression with no MNK, so while they were useful, they definitely were not invaluable, especially after DRG buffs in 2.45.

Invaluable, not neccessary to win. Also I was talking about very early progression, when ppl stepped into fcob with (pentamelded) 110 because not enough poetics/coil drops yet. That was also before drg buffs.

[Hakmatic]

only thing is laughable is you pretty much.

Parse is from Jan 2...MNK was using i125 Zodiac weapon and wasn't even that geared.

only persons with Dread weapon in that parse were the PLD and WHM.

Lol I was doing more than that with less gear please tell me more about getting good. If that was in fact a lucrezia parse their monk is not the greastest. Ive seen multiple lucrezia parses, the monk has yet to amaze me.

[Bhearil]

When it's a 10-20 DPS difference I think we're really starting to nitpick here. I don't know why people think MNK should have the highest damage - they have comparable damage to NIN and DRG and bring DK + traited Mantra. If you balance for skill and make one class superior in DPS and utility to the others if you can reach the skill cap, then that class becomes OP because everyone will play it and DRG/NIN will be left in the dust. This isn't like SMN who is far behind BLM, or WAR who was far behind PLD in terms of tanking capability in 2.0. This is literally whining about 10-20 DPS because "I have to work harderrrrr ; _ ;". You don't get a balanced game by making the harder to play classes more powerful.

Because devs said that is their intention that monk is the best single target damage dealer job.

You can reason to why is it from many ways, but is a fact that monk has the biggest requirements for optimal performance. And remember that some fights give the monk the middle finger in terms of performance (steps of faith for example where unless boss has stopped is too risky to do lateral hits or just bosses that dissapear from the area for more than 5 seconds leaving the monk with no GS stacks). Dragoons and Ninjas in comparison have little problem with boss mechanics in terms of a dps loss (aside Mudra lag problem and Dragoon is geting some love anyways in 3.0).

And about harder to play classes more powerful sorry but if they are less or similarly powerful, then why bother with them? High risk, High reward instead of Medium risk Medium reward sounds quite fair to me. On the last official census monks were dead last amongs with warriors as the less played jobs so its not like everyone and their mother are playing monks

[Craiger]

Invaluable, not neccessary to win. Also I was talking about very early progression, when ppl stepped into fcob with (pentamelded) 110 because not enough poetics/coil drops yet. That was also before drg buffs.

This^

There is an interview with 2 players from the FC Collision somewhere on Youtube, and they mentioned at one point that they think Dragon Kick and Mantra is OP, and that maybe even they should remove/nerf those effects, or give similar to other jobs...

We are talking about the group that got world first on T12, world second on T10, T11 and T13... So if they think it's that good, then I trust those words.

Later on when people get more gear, this doesn't apply to the same extent, but we are still talking about a reduction in magic taking (DK) and a very useful increase in healing (Mantra)... It's not like you become invincible as soon as you get some gear.

For your overall group DPS, the difference in DPS is so little that it won't really make a big difference. On the other hand, reducing magic damage and having mantra can easily be the difference between a wipe and a clear.

....
On the last official census monks were dead last amongs with warriors as the less played jobs so its not like everyone and their mother are playing monks

That's just because it's a hard job to play, and that scares a lot of players... If you could look at just people who actually raid, and not casuals, I think that number would go up some.

Like have been said, pretty much every early progression group in the game uses a MNK or two... How does that translate to them being under-powered?

Also, I don't think many here have actually said they don't want them to make some changes to MNK... but the thing is, if they are to increase their DPS to be above Nin and DRG, then they first have to either nerf DK, or they have to give the others some other utility that evens it out some, otherwise MNKs would be OP.

It's not MNK's maximum performance that needs changing, what needs changing is how easy they get to that maximum. Like you said, sometimes you lose your GL stacks without being able to do a thing, in those cases you should be able to either regain them faster than now (can't always rely on PB), or hold on to the stacks in another way. Don't want them to increase the GL duration though, cause MNKs should keep their high risk play style. That's based on the current abilities though... with heavensward, they might have to increase that duration for the new rotation we will be using.

I would actually like it if they did balance the Dragon Kick, and made MNK top of single target DPS again. MNKs are meant to be kings of DPS after all.

[SpookyGhost]

High risk, High reward instead of Medium risk Medium reward sounds quite fair to me.

Except it isn't.

Consider the following:

Let's say NIN, on average, parsed at 610 with BiS. Let's say MNK, who has to work harder to keep up his DPS, parsed at 690. 80 DPS difference is quite a significant amount, so we'll just say that we're buffing them to that point.

Now, usually everyone complaining about MNK's DPS (or any class' DPS for that matter) like to pretend that they're in world first progression groups where their party composition actually matters. So, with this in mind, would a world first progression group want the DPS that's 80 DPS behind, or the one that takes a little bit more out of you to play but brings with it 80 more DPS?

The answer... is of course MNK. In fact in this scenario (as has been proved in the past before people learned how to play NIN), MNK does significant enough damage over NIN to not even warrant bringing a NIN along side the MNK. You'd just take 2 MNKs, a BRD, and BLM.

So, at that point, where is DRG and NIN? Does NIN offer anything besides a DPS increase? No. The reason Goad exists is to increase raid DPS (though it does less of a job now than it did before) and Trick Attack is the same deal. If MNK is significantly outparsing NIN, there is no need for either. DRG literally only increases BRD's DPS as it's utility and, well, it'll be less than MNKs.

So we have the other 2 melee jobs collecting dust, and MNK straight up dominating. Not only in DPS, but in raid utility as well. What would we call that? Ah, yes, overpowered. After this point, since no one wants nerfs, they would bring DRG and NIN up to par with MNK, and then one would ever so slightly edge out over the others, people would complain, there'd be a buff again, the cycle repeats itself endlessly.

Right now, all 3 melee jobs are in a great position. Even if you brought MNK for world first progression in 3.0 Alex, you'd also want either a DRG or a NIN for the extra DPS. This could very well change in 3.0 as we don't know what future abilities are really coming (aside from a few pretty animations), but as of right now I don't think any of the melee jobs need a buff or a nerf. Everything is safely balanced, especially right now since everyone is decked out in i130 and the highest raid content has Echo.

[Odowla]

I mean that's the risk/reward. Drop stacks? Oh, well, figure out to not drop them. And getting GL4 is a very safe assumption; you always got your Maim and Mend or w/e at level 20, 40, and now, probably 60, same with Gl2 at 20, GL3 at 40, etc.

Yeah, sure, it makes our stacks "harder" to get, but, i mean... Dragoon's first "damage" ability is 4 gcd's in. Ninja's is 5. etc. Its not like a 4 GCD windup is the end of the world.
On the note of needing to build stacks; In my experience whenever we've pulled without my PB, I've sat higher than when i do have PB. It's all in how you pop your cooldowns; stack them starting at GL2 + Pop potion on the GCD you get GL3, collect 900 dps burst and sit at ~630 afterward. Thanks, OP cooldown stacking ;o

[RathSkybreaker]

My group did progression with no MNK, so while they were useful, they definitely were not invaluable, especially after DRG buffs in 2.45.

He's refering to day one progression where DRG was worthless and MNK was the holy grail of DPS at the time.

[Gildarts]

Lol I was doing more than that with less gear please tell me more about getting good. If that was in fact a lucrezia parse their monk is not the greastest. Ive seen multiple lucrezia parses, the monk has yet to amaze me.

only thing amaze me about you were your T9 drg merged parsers, funny you were bragging about high DPS there lawl.

[Hakmatic]

only thing amaze me about you were your T9 drg merged parsers, funny you were bragging about high DPS there lawl.

You realize I out dpsed almost every NA monk and nin for FCOB before echo right? Please learn your place. What can I say, I was a shitter. Even then if it had been unmerged I still did more then what that agruement was about and I didnt mean for this to turn into a talk about my dps or that monk in that parse. I was just saying that the parse linked was not a good comparison for nin vs mnk. I mean the nin beat the mnk by almost 40 dps thats no where close to right lol.