Why bring MNK to anything anymore?

[ClaireAbigail]

"Hypothetical" and "assume" there's no perfect scenario here. People are just basically putting two classes against each other for God knows why. Here's a realistic senario for you: people make mistakes. Sometimes healers will need help, sometimes the dps will need it. Both have good sets of utilities that help each group cover their weaknesses. If anything, every class synergize along with each other. There will be times where your group will push so damn fast that there will be a gigaflare after a megaflare. What do you do? Use mantra the monk one so people can be topped off properly. Sometimes there won't be a soil up. People screw up. some of the arguments in this thread is invalid and will probably never happen. God lol people here are just arguing for arguments sake because they don't wanna admit they are wrong. Leave the classes as it is. They are pretty balanced already.

[Craiger]

"Hypothetical" and "assume" there's no perfect scenario here. People are just basically putting two classes against each other for God knows why. Here's a realistic senario for you: people make mistakes. Sometimes healers will need help, sometimes the dps will need it. Both have good sets of utilities that help each group cover their weaknesses. If anything, every class synergize along with each other. There will be times where your group will push so damn fast that there will be a gigaflare after a megaflare. What do you do? Use mantra the monk one so people can be topped off properly. Sometimes there won't be a soil up. People screw up. some of the arguments in this thread is invalid and will probably never happen. God lol people here are just arguing for arguments sake because they don't wanna admit they are wrong. Leave the classes as it is. They are pretty balanced already.

I don't want start a big argument over it all, the expansion is coming soon anyways, but I wanted to point one thing out...

Like you said yourself just now, people make mistakes, and comparing jobs in perfect scenarios is hard too, but... If we assume players are making mistakes, and mechanics makes it impossible to have a perfect scenario, who comes out on top? Ninja...

Ninjas can just swiftly get back to their rotation and doesn't even have to bother with their positioning... meanwhile a Monk who makes a mistake or just can't keep up GL, will have to build up the stacks again in a painful way. Hell, even messing up the positional attacks for some reason, is a big DPS loss.

We aren't talking about some minor differences here, we are talking about a huge amount of DPS loss.

If a Ninja and Monk with the exact same skill level do a fight where you lose GL at least once, it will be directly reflected on their DPS, and MNK's Mantra and Dragonkick doesn't even begin to make up for that.

They changed DRG's positionals because they were too punishing, but what about MNK? You shouldn't lose all your GL stacks like that... and they should more easily get those 3 stacks, for raiding, but more importantly for dungeons and other content, where Monk is horrible to play.

[Akiza]

I don't want start a big argument over it all, the expansion is coming soon anyways, but I wanted to point one thing out...Like you said yourself just now, people make mistakes, and comparing jobs in perfect scenarios is hard too, but... If we assume players are making mistakes, and mechanics makes it impossible to have a perfect scenario, who comes out on top? Ninja...

Ninjas can just swiftly get back to their rotation and doesn't even have to bother with their positioning... meanwhile a Monk who makes a mistake or just can't keep up GL, will have to build up the stacks again in a painful way. Hell, even messing up the positional attacks for some reason, is a big DPS loss.

We aren't talking about some minor differences here, we are talking about a huge amount of DPS loss.

If a Ninja and Monk with the exact same skill level do a fight where you lose GL at least once, it will be directly reflected on their DPS, and MNK's Mantra and Dragonkick doesn't even begin to make up for that.

They changed DRG's positionals because they were too punishing, but what about MNK? You shouldn't lose all your GL stacks like that... and they should more easily get those 3 stacks, for raiding, but more importantly for dungeons and other content, where Monk is horrible to play.

The Monk has nothing to worry about in the expansion because the only roles being affected are the Healer, Bard and Tank. The Summoner population will continue to rapidly decline unless SE completely overhauls it to make it more competitive. Bards will compete with Machinist and there will always be 3 melee spots unless SE pleasantly surprises us.

[Craiger]

The Monk has nothing to worry about in the expansion because the only roles being affected are the Healer, Bard and Tank. The Summoner population will continue to rapidly decline unless SE completely overhauls it to make it more competitive. Bards will compete with Machinist and there will always be 3 melee spots unless SE pleasantly surprises us.

3 melee spots?

If SE keeps the same model as now, you will continue to bring 2 melee DPS, 1 BLM/SMN and 1 BRD/MCH(?)

[Akiza]

3 melee spots?

If SE keeps the same model as now, you will continue to bring 2 melee DPS, 1 BLM/SMN and 1 BRD/MCH(?)

Actually the model now is 3 Melee DPS, BLM and BRD and if things continue the meta will be 3 Melee, BLM and Bard/MCH

[Craiger]

Actually the model now is 3 Melee DPS, BLM and BRD and if things continue the meta will be 3 Melee, BLM and Bard/MCH

That's 5 DPS you know... and you can only bring 4 if you're bringing 2 Tanks and 2 healers, which you have to, at least before everyone is overgeared

Don't know where you're getting that from...

[Akiza]

J

That's 5 DPS you know... and you can only bring 4 if you're bringing 2 Tanks and 2 healers, which you have to, at least before everyone is overgeared

Don't know where you're getting that from...

It's Bard or Machinist and Monk, Ninja or Dragoon, BLM. Monks still have the highest sustained damage of the DPS job so they aren't in the same position as the Summoner because the Melee are pretty close in damage.

[DenebPunkin]

I don't want start a big argument over it all, the expansion is coming soon anyways, but I wanted to point one thing out...

Like you said yourself just now, people make mistakes, and comparing jobs in perfect scenarios is hard too, but... If we assume players are making mistakes, and mechanics makes it impossible to have a perfect scenario, who comes out on top? Ninja...

Ninjas can just swiftly get back to their rotation and doesn't even have to bother with their positioning... meanwhile a Monk who makes a mistake or just can't keep up GL, will have to build up the stacks again in a painful way. Hell, even messing up the positional attacks for some reason, is a big DPS loss.

We aren't talking about some minor differences here, we are talking about a huge amount of DPS loss.

If a Ninja and Monk with the exact same skill level do a fight where you lose GL at least once, it will be directly reflected on their DPS, and MNK's Mantra and Dragonkick doesn't even begin to make up for that.

They changed DRG's positionals because they were too punishing, but what about MNK? You shouldn't lose all your GL stacks like that... and they should more easily get those 3 stacks, for raiding, but more importantly for dungeons and other content, where Monk is horrible to play.

Ideally.. the only "fix" I think a Monk could use or benefit from is making the GL stacks drop off one by one as opposed to losing it all at once. So it goes from "GL3 > GL2 > GL1 > to why did you let all three DROP 0_0".

I think that would be a fair and simple fix since Monk is pretty great in all other regards.

[Crescent_Dusk]

I'm just annoyed with the positionals and greased lightning. Bosses constantly flipping around right as you activate a skill to target a ranged party member for an attack, ruining your positional, greased lightning's pitifully short duration making it rather simple to lose stacks.

I mean, if DRG and NIN can compete with monk without the downsides, and they bring better burst and aoe, what's the point?

A ninja can cast his self buffs without needing a target. A monk needs something to hit so many intermissions just screw him over. A monk needs to go through 3 cycles to start dealing peak dps, DRG and NON just start faster. DRG and NIN have better burst and AoE, monk AoE is not only weak, it's TP prohibitive in cost.

If you're gonna make a class much harder/inconvenient to play, the rewards need to match that inconvenience otherwise there's no point if the other ones that don't have to deal with positionals or ramp up and have actual burst are within 10-20 DPS of you or on par.

[Lorielle]

You know, it's not like I didn't mention this in other threads about this discussion. Monk still does top DPS if you want to pit a well versed NIN vs. a well versed Monk. Want to know something? NIN and a MNK in the same party. Who's going to hit the TP draught first? The NIN will. Why is that? Because they only have Invigorate. But the MNK only has Invigorate too! But wait..! The NIN has Goad, they SHOULD be giving this to the MNK which goes into the overall DPS lasting longer.

T10 - Only time losing stacks is if you're picked for wild charge(this is potentially avoidable, but the window is very, very strict)
T11 - You don't have to go the full flank for a positional movement. So even if you're tethered, you can still get positional. Losing GL3 shouldn't be an issue here though.
T12 - Transition into Bennu Phase. You will lose GL3. But you can PB here and just start over again. Just make sure to end on Twin or Snap as the last Bennu dies to maintain GL3 as Phoenix comes to play again.
T13 - Divebombs. Loss of GL3 is obvious. You can pick and choose when to use you're PB, but I usually just save it for Bahamut returning for Teraflare(Though I think the span between first DB and Tera is more than three minutes, so two PB could be ready if used at first set of adds)

Is the loss of GL3 fair because of mechanics? No. Not at all. I certainly agree that we should have a stack by stack loss or another way of achieving GL3 or PB(There's a PVP skill that does grant PB which is rather nice. Another which instantly grants GL3). I'm not fond of building stacks again because of mechanics while everyone else can just go ham from the get go after mechanics. People speak of high risk and high reward, but I guarantee you people will hate you for trying to play risky and ignoring mechanics for the sake of keeping your DPS.