The random rule is not okay

[Aeyis]

snip

First off: very well written and concise post.
Agree with nearly your all of your tactical approaches, altho with one or two points I disagree.

Firstly, those hands are certainly terrible, but only on their own accord. Below there is still another level of ''no chance at all'' that you can draw, the one where you don't have a 7/8. That said, I don't know which one is precisely more likely to appear in a 2* deck, so ill just assume they can both appear at a somewhat equal rate (for arguments sake).
Your layed out method shows very nicely how to go for beating Landanel (and apply similar tactics to Rowena) with this kind of gimped deck.


Secondly tho, I do feel all of the wins are down to ''luck''. Now as I said I quite agree with the way you moved all your cards.
However to take your last match as an example; at the end I would have assumed result: draw best case, worst case loss.

Draw: the more likely conclusion.
- Titan or his unknown was placed in the top left first. Had you placed a card in middle left or bottom left after, you would have lost 2 cards, so you would place it in top middle. He plays Odin or the remaining card on the left side, caps 1; you finish --> draw.
-He places a card in top middle. Considering the stats he has left, likely wont capture. If he uses bahamut will result in his win, if he not, your win unless he uses bahamut on the left side afterwards, resulting in a draw.
-If he uses bahamut in the middle left, your win due to having free placement and no cards that can be taken. If he uses any other card there, your win if you can exploit it without sylph being taken; otherwise draw.

Now the big one: if he used any card at all in the bottom left, it would have been his won. It would capture sylph, and allow him to capture your next card (with either odin or his unknown, depending on what you played)
As you say, even with the last cards position, if he had bahamut it would have resulted in a draw.


Altho I call it luck, it isnt exactly luck either. It is a weakness (?) in the NPCs programming it. It can be argued that exploiting that weakness is a very legit and viable strategy tho. (I personally agree with that) I would say that its pretty hard at this point to get an idea on how to do that with reliability.


In my opinion your examples all still rely on the NPC making mistakes in order to win. I've certainly seen NPCs do that quite a lot; but on the flip side ive always faced NPCs that felt like they were cheating, as they seemed to even position their cards based on my cards values.
(leaving a 4 side open when there was no need at all to do so, however I had no cards that could flip that side)
So personally I'm always expecting NPCs to flip the tables on the player at some point. Simply not making as many mistakes would make the harder ones a heck of a lot harder to beat.


That all said, indeed your approach will help a lot of people who are still struggling to defeat him stand a far better chance.

It would be a lot less painful with a 3 star deck tho. (which is mostly what I ment with ''high rate of success'', farmable with a >50% win ratio if you play well)
..Those times when you wield a party of cactuars aside.

Well, on the brightside of this discussion, fortunately he doesnt drop any 5 stars. So no need for hardcore grinding.

[Kharhaz]

sigh...

Kharkaz I've read through this entire thread and I'm almost positive that no one here asked for any kind of strategy. How do you not realize why you were being met with hostility? Did you read the OP, or just begin firing off comments to posters?

Of course nobody asked for a strategy, that would make no sense when the majority of people here claim that there is no strategy you can use. I can assure you this is false, and if you sit down and consider that Landenel's cards never change, and assume he will always have his best cards, it makes it significantly easier to develop a strategy or plan for his next possible moves.

Nowhere in the OP does it ask for strategies. Nowhere does it say that the OP could not beat him if they got a favorable set-up. This entire thread was created because of the multi-RNG dip that we get when playing "Random" opponents. RNG whether or not we get a good hand, RNG where you can play a card with A's on it if you happen to get one, RNG to win period....

I see where you're coming from, but as I mentioned, there is a big difference between a thread where someone is complaining and a thread where someone is asking for help. The reason I chose a thread where people are complaining is because these claims are just not true. I probably came off as a jerk, but I don't like seeing all of this outrage over the matter.

A lot of these claims are really the opposite of what the facts are. A big example of this is that people are claiming getting more cards will not help when one star cards only make up 20, and its unlikely that someone who is having trouble here even has all 20. For comparison there are 17 two star cards, so with all the other cards thrown in, even with a rank two deck these claims are still wrong.

In your instances above you have Draw: Terrible, but both of those cards have at least one 3* card in it. I would wildly beg to differ that those hands are "terrible". Very consistently I will get dealt a full 1 star deck. I'm not sure what that deck classifies as if a deck with a 3* in it is "terrible". You can outline 18,000 different strategies, and bait as best as possible but there is no consistent, viable way to win when you actually get a "terrible" deck. I will reiterate, both of the decks you list as "terrible" are MALMS better than what I usually get.

You would have to list your card collection for me to see what the problem is, I have not been able to draw all one star cards yet, so I can not comment on this problem. However, I am fairly confident I can at least go for a draw depending on the cards.

You are just completely missing the entire point of this thread and are "contributing" things that I don't believe anyone ever asked for, and then telling us we refuse to listen to help. You are also categorizing every single person in this thread as "complainers" when there was quite literally 1 or 2 people who may have copped an internet attitude with you.

Those were my observations, and I feel that I am entitled to express my frustration with constant complaints in this game. I should have taken a different approach, but it's upsetting when people willing to consider the alternative. However, I've realized that I was too harsh at first, and it should be pretty clear that I've changed my attitude in order to better help with this issue.

If you can tell me how in the flying f$%# you can end up with at least 1 3* card in your deck every single match, that will be advice I will listen to! As it is, I can take your "terrible" decks and get wins also.

I don't know why, and that's why I was mistaken earlier, I honestly thought that was how it worked. It feels get a three star or higher like 9/10 and I think that's even true in my assorted matches. It's probably because I have a large number of legendary and epic cards.

What is your strategy when your deck consists of: Bomb, Mandragora, Moogle, Sahagin and Coeurl? Because my strat for that deck is "finish this shit as quickly as possible because I can't win"

I don't know, but if I was given that deck I would be able to tell you how to best play it out, and it does have 5's and 7's that come in handy here, and you only need to be able to beat a 1 to capture pretty much everything but Bahamut (and another point is that you're supposed to be putting things in a safe spot or forcing him to expose a side).

And then I get variants of that same crap hand 10 times in a row. It is frustrating, not difficult.

This suggest that you might need to collect more cards, but it's kind of odd that I get very similar hands and the same face cards more than not. Random is random however.

THAT is what people are "complaining" about. And you don't have to agree with the rest of the people, that is totally fine. But if you don't agree, you also don't need to derail this thread any further than it already has been. If you can't understand the simplicity of the qualm, then your "advice and help" is actually the exact opposite of that, because I'm fairly sure that anyone who takes the time to come into a sub-forum to discuss a game is pretty serious about it, and are more than capable of formulating a strategy on a game based off concepts you learn in kindergarten (i.e. which number is larger??????)

I believe I covered this, but nothing I'm doing in this thread really benefits me. However, to make up for my attitude earlier I am taking the time and effort to show proof, or as close to proof as I can find that Random NPCs are not as bad as they are being described.

For the record, I have beaten Landenel several times and got Odin from him (I got Titan from Trachtoum). I enjoy going from NPC to NPC (as opposed to mindlessly farming the Imperial all day) every once in a while just to switch it up. I play Swift regularly. Chaos sucks, but at least I have control of the deck I use.

I find Swift to be the hardest NPC, I actually only beat him maybe once or twice if I'm lucky before the time runs out. His cards are extremely good, and I personally will not farm him until I hit 60+. On the other hand, I really do beat Landenel alot, and thats why I feel I can still contribute to the thread, its not just RNG and a solid strategy can definitely be defined to help people that have trouble.

Nothing about the current way "Random" is set-up, is fun. I will not be going back to play Landenel because any win you get is still completely reliant on your luck of the draw.

I enjoy the challenge of winning with a disadvantage, while not many people are, I don't see why one of the few difficult TT matches should be toned down. This NPC seems to have a rather generous drop rate (not confirmed) and you don't need to farm him for his card anyway. This is my opinion, however as you can see someone is going to be upset if something is changed or not either way, this is why I feel it's better to help people adjust to what is already there instead of also supporting that it be changed. Is that not the logical solution?

I'm not a complete asshole, I just did not want to take the time to prove some of my claims because it requires I spend a lot my time and effort to try and alleviate the stress of people who didn't ask for help in the first place.

PS: I am however completely against Random regional rules, that's just stupid.

[Kharhaz]

@ Aeyis

Thank you, it seems that it's only fair that I would be treated with the same lack of respect that I gave the people in this thread. The fact that you were willing to be polite and discuss the matter like this changes my initial opinion of the community.

In any case, it's probably just a combination of luck and making smart moves, or making moves for a specific reason. There are a lot of defensive, baiting, or recapture strategies you can use that could *potentially* increase your chances of winning more than collecting or drawing better cards.

I know I can't convince people to do something they don't want to do, but at the same time embracing this kind of challenge instead of dreading it can really help people become better players, learning to use cards they normally don't and picking up on NPC tendencies. That's why I hate to see people get frustrated and ask for something to be toned down.

Now, there is the problem of these claims of constantly getting awful cards, and I only really had problems like that before I reached 30+. So I am pretty curious to see some card counts. I think since a random deck has to still follow the rules of your rank, perhaps the way your rare card is chosen (or not chosen) is affecting the randomizer in a strange way.

I don't think it's that unfair for NPCs to break the rules or have a small pool of cards like they do. It does seem like BS at first, but if you are willing to give it a chance its really not THAT bad. I will however admit, that if a change were to be made, I feel players should always get one face card if they have one.

Sorry for the double post, but I think it's easier to read this way and I don't see it as a problem when I'm not posting one liners.

[MilesSaintboroguh]

I'd complain about random, but I can't even get lucky to get any new cards to hit the 30 threshold.

[QT_Melon]

To even have a chance at this NPC for farming status you need:

1. Beat 30 NPCs to unlock 2 stars.

2. I would say about a 53 card minimum.

20 cards in your deck are 1 star cards.
17 cards are 2 star, so you want to at least get about every 2 star card out there.

I know people are upset at Kharhaz's tone and rightfully so, but there is strategy to the random just like all the other npcs.

RNG is involved, but you want to push the odd in your favor by getting 53 cards, you so you definitely need to pick up those 2 star cards ASAP.

The strategy often involves 2 ways but all of them need to have the end result of Odin being played up top so he does the least amount of "damage"

You can follow the strat explained, but my strategy involved baiting the NPC by placing a very low card in the middle. Cobelyn, Mandragora etc...

I think he should have A cards in his deck because right now he has a very pointless Fallen Ace rule that has no bearing on his deck.

[JayCommon]

snip

Thank you for your direct reply. It is appreciated. I'm not someone who is against overlooking first impressions, however some people are not so forgiving

Maybe you went about it the right way having a lot of good cards and less than 60? I literally toiled over trying to make sure I had 60 unique cards before the tournament started...(what a joke that turned out to be...) and admittedly most of that included getting every single 1 star card because they had the highest drop rate and the easiest chance to acquire. This included all of the low level dungeons for the exclusive cards they hold and almost every trial (still missing Shiva). So maybe my entire deck is just filled with more junk then yours, therefore I get crappy hands more often? I have some 5/4 star cards, but I think I have every single 1 star card.

It very well could be that I see worse hands then you consistently because my card pool is further diluted with low cards, but this is a problem that anyone heavily invested in Triple Triad is going to encounter eventually.

You said yourself that there are 20 1* cards. In a deck with 80 cards total, a full 25% of your potential deck is the worst possible. Also take in to consideration that another 20 cards are 5* and 10 cards are 4* which makes it impossible for you to ever have more than 1 of them in your deck. So what this does is effectively increases that 25%, because you really only have a total of 51 cards you can ever compose a Random deck with. 20/51 is much much more skewed than 20/80, we are looking at a bit over 40% chance each card pull can be 1*.

It's honestly surprising to me that you haven't seen a deck like I mentioned in my other post lol....

I think Swift is the hardest NPC also and have nothing against difficulty. Difficulty makes Triple Triad fun. But what Random rule set does, is artificial difficulty. They are taking an NPC who doesn't really have that strong of a card set and injecting him with a large dose of frustration and bullshit (my opinion ) to draw out the opportunities you have for winning. I completely agree that you can make most of your decks at least a draw as long as you play them right.

Honestly I would have more fun against an NPC who had 5 5star cards. At least I can freely try and figure out how to take a monster hand like that down. I wouldn't even mind random if it just adhered to the deck rules I already have!! I took the time to get 60 cards I shouldn't be downgraded forcefully after grinding them ^^

Lastly, I too enjoy winning with a disadvantage. I thought that's what we were already doing though, since some of these NPCs have multiple 5/4* cards in their decks when we can't have them. Artifically decreasing the overall value of my deck based on RNG is just not fun for me haha.

So I am pretty curious to see some card counts. I think since a random deck has to still follow the rules of your rank, perhaps the way your rare card is chosen (or not chosen) is affecting the randomizer in a strange way.

I am at 61. And this is another big problem people have with random, just to clear it up for you. The part that I bolded in your quote is not true. Your random deck doesn't have to adhere to the rules of the rank you are in. Maybe that's where a lot of this confusion has come from.

[Krr]

Yo, all I'm asking for is that Random Rule NPCs have enough filler commons and uncommons in their Random pool that would actually make their multiple 3-star decks legal. Right now, it's very obvious that they are using static decks that are no more or less random than other regular, non-Random rule NPCs have.

[Kharhaz]

Why should only NPCs who use the Random rule be subject to these restrictions?

[Runewraith]

I am at 61. And this is another big problem people have with random, just to clear it up for you. The part that I bolded in your quote is not true. Your random deck doesn't have to adhere to the rules of the rank you are in.

In my experience and everyone in my fc/linkshells experience this is blatantly false. The random deck you're given will never break the rarity limit you currently have. If you're claiming otherwise I'd like to see some evidence.


edit; looks like the guy I replied to deleted his post.

[Firepower]

There is currently 80 cards in the game

20 1*
17 2*
13 3*
10 4*
20 5*

Lets assume you have every card for maximum chance of winning a random battle, you have a 0.375 chance of drawing a 4 or 5 star card per card so a fair assumption should be made that 0.375 x 5 > 1 therefore you should get one. After getting that one card be it 4 (33%) or 5 (66%) star you will then be only allowed 3 or below cards to be randomed in.

Assuming that one of the 5 cards is a high value means 4/5 need to be 3 star or lower.

that leaves you with:

26% 3*
34% 2*
40% 1*

I'm not sure what kind of deck composition you need to reliably beat Landenel but I would assume he would definitely have to screw up to be beaten by the weaker 1 stars and a single 5 star. Personally I just beat him the once and left him alone since it really is no fun just playing a game you have no control over. Also this is ignoring the fact that a handful of the 5 stars haven't been found yet and ones like lightning require winning tournaments, 1 million MGP for cloud or rare drops from booster packs which lower your chances of 5 stars, but as I mentioned at the start, it's not the problem of winning its the problem of whats the point it is essentially as someone mentioned earlier the aurum vale of npc's. Is Yoshi going to put "beat landanel 50 times for rare item drop to continue your relic weapon in heavensward or something?"

The reward is too low, I understand the challenge and difficulty and it being random but after people have gotten odin card (more than likely from farming urths fount, I can bet with a decent party I can kill odin in a similar time someone might get one win vs landenel) So enhance the rewards from these npc's to make the challenge rewarding. People will still be farming king elmer and indolent imperial in the future for MGP, nobody will be near Landenel because of his unfair setup.