The random rule is not okay

[Aeyis]

First off, you outright claimed that myself and Tadacho were wrong, purely based on the fact that you could not accomplish the same thing. I'm sure that people are going to get defensive or claim otherwise, but your posts certainly convey this message. In any case, this is what happened when I tried to post an explanation of one possible outcome:

Where did you see this written? This not about players ability with TT, or specifically, my ability with the game.
It's about facts regarding how difficult, or easy it is to win with a good rate.

Based on my own, and many others experience, we logically deduced that with only a medium level deck, it's definately possible to beat NPCs who use the Random rule. However, your win rate will be quite poor and that includes needing to abuse the NPCs faulty programming.

My posts did not in any way or shape convey the message you say.
Tadacho's advice was good, but it was advice ment for stronger opponents in general, and does not help with the Random rule. I do believe he did make his own arguments solid by mentioning at the end that indeed, those tips do not guaranty a good win rate, but they will help improve it.

Landenel does not have a spectacular deck either, Ifrit and Titan are hardly better than most 2 star cards and usually one of the two will usually be played first whether you can take it or not makes no difference because Landenel will always put them somewhere that is advantageous to you.

How is a 7/7 combo placed in a corner in any way an advantageous for a 2 star deck? Not a single 2 star can flip that.

Next, the ideal situation is Ifrit being placed on the bottom right, from here you can easily bait Bahamut or Odin if you've got a halfway decent card, Rhitathyn or Succubus work extremely well if you are lucky enough to pull one of them. Odin will either take it and leave himself exposed, or be placed on top of it for no effect.

I honestly dont recall if ive ever seen a NPC allow a 4 star primal to be exposed on its single weak side. The only thing that could cause that to happen is the ''stupid mistake'' everyone talks about. Its pretty hard to pull it off without just the right cards tho.

If he uses Bahamut that's still fine because you can easily capture him in that position. His other cards are nothing to worry about, but you need to prepare for the second 5 star, so at this point I pretty much try to trade cards with him in order to minimize the use of his remaining 5* (sometimes there is no second one, but better safe than sorry). This is why your cards for the most part don't matter, but I'd say you need at least 2 good corner cards and a halfway decent epic or legendary, your other two cards are simply used to block off the board and recapture or to take his exposed cards.

That's the thing about random tho. I've had decks with 1 3 star, and 1 4 star, the rest all 1 star's. All of his cards have atleast 1 7, meaning that you can't block him in a corner with a 2 star. Altho bahamut could be taken if he uses that, it relies on you actually having a 6(7)+ on his unprotected weak side. In my last match, the only card that had that was levi. Leaving its weak side (a 1) unprotected, and since I had no means to retake it, it would have been a card swap.

This is just a partial explanation of one possible outcome/flow of the match, it's not an exact science and there's some odd RNG, but there's nothing bad that will happen otherwise, and sometimes he will use odin defensively in the corner or something and sets up the possibility to take him for free with your legendary. If you analyze the sides of his cards, you should know what directions he can take, and which he can not at all times, the right side of the board is a very good place to start, and you will realize that you do not need as many good cards as you may think, because your defenses will be set up by taking his exposed cards. This is why I say that brute force is a bad way to go about it, I'm not afraid to sacrifice cards to control the board because I can easily take them back later, I know which spots are best to bait and which are best played defensively, as well as which spots are dangerous.

Noone mentioned trying to brute force it. Odin is typically used as second last card. That mean's it's very hard to attempt to defend against it, since it has 3 sides that can likely take all of your adjacent cards; let alone take Odin.
His cards exposed sides are usually well protected. Sacrificing cards is certainly the right way to go about this, however if most of your opponents cards can flip 2-3 sides at once; then you are fighting a war of attrition at best.
[QUOTE=Kharhaz;2815246]
I spent my time developing a real strategy, while others spent their time complaining for no reason. This is why I am reluctant to help you.
[quote]
This is the first time you bothered responded to others with arguments of your own; instead of simply saying it is the case.

We did give examples of why it is not so easy to beat a Random rule opponent.

Edit: I could elaborate a lot more, but I think I got my point across. Which is that people are focusing on the wrong aspects of this matchup and are not noticing his obvious weaknesses because they think his cards are too strong. A human being has the ability to think, NPCs do not.

Human beings have the ability to make mistakes despite their programming, NPCs can be flawless if their programming is.
His cards are too strong.


I would not missjudge people so easily by the way. Many people on these forums that are discussing TT have 50+ cards, and many hours spend playing TT.
Just because they have a different opinion then you does not mean ''all they do is complain''
To me it sounds like you are the one trying to prove your right.

Summary: Opponents with strong decks who use the Random rule can definately be beating by a medium level deck. Noone claimed otherwise. But due to the nature of the Random rule; it's impossible to beat them with a good success rate unless you have a 3 star deck. And even with a 3 star deck; this can happen:

[Nanaya]

Random would be fine if the NPCs using it had a larger card sample size to random out of. As it stands now, they have like 7-8 cards they can random 5 out of, and all of them are pretty solid choices. And while increasing your own deck with stronger cards increases the odds of getting something usable, you are still at the mercy of RNG. Not entirely sure what the developers expect me to do with a herd of one stars and a Memeroon, but evidently there is a path to victory with this pathetic motley crew against Bahamut, Odin, and Titan. I've already ransacked Landenel of his cards, to be totally forthright, but it certainly was not a pleasant time, nor do I feel particularly accomplished about it. I just got a few dozen good dice rolls for deck synergy, that's about it.

Seems to me the most obvious approach to alleviate this issue is the just increase the card pool for these Random NPCs. I'm not saying they need all the cards the player has, but at least a dozen cards to choose from would be a bit more reasonable.

[Aeyis]

Actually, if you have all the easily obtainable cards there are 20 one star cards compared to 30 two and three star cards. If you also consider that you are guaranteed a four star or higher, then I would say that means the opposite is true. Not to mention that it's not a big deal to have one or two terrible cards, you should be able to beat Landenel with 2 "useless" cards if you have 3 cards that are all two star or higher.

You are not guaranteed a 4 star or higher. Nor are you guaranteed to have only one or two terrible cards.
Considering that pretty much any 2 star card is terrible against a high level deck in fact, the only card that wouldnt be a bad draw would be your 4* or 5* cards...if you actually draw one.

[KariArisu]

Thanks for the feedback. We've been sharing it all with the development team.

Not very much time has passed since Triple Triad made it's glorious release, and it’s quite possible that the random rule feels a bit more difficult due to the fact that players do not have enough cards just yet.

If you feel it is posing a challenge, we ask that you venture throughout Eorzea to collect more cards and then try to challenge these opponents again! You’ll most likely feel a difference once you have more cards and are able to use higher tiers of rare cards in your deck.

Even with 60+ cards, it's still completely RNG whether or not you'll random cards good enough to beat the NPC. I thought the point of the rules was to have it apply to both of us? If we're only having rules work against us, why give us the ability to make use of Plus/Same/etc.

[Mook_Mook]

I got odin from that guy and random is a dumb rule. it offers no synergies no sound play. Just hope you get a deck that can compete and if you dont oh well. Its rng at its worst. Allow players to make a 10 card deck that will make it more tolerable as they will have a smaller pool to choose from and give some control. No one likes losing when you have no control.

[Shneibel]

Actually, if you have all the easily obtainable cards there are 20 one star cards compared to 30 two and three star cards. If you also consider that you are guaranteed a four star or higher, then I would say that means the opposite is true. Not to mention that it's not a big deal to have one or two terrible cards, you should be able to beat Landenel with 2 "useless" cards if you have 3 cards that are all two star or higher.

Do you even RNG ?

[Mishini_Dracoto]

. . . and are able to use higher tiers of rare cards in your deck.

That is exactly why people hate the Random rule. because they AREN'T able to use the rare cards in their deck.

If you are oing to play with Random Rule on an NPC, it would make more sense to have it completely randomly select your deck, ignoring the deck-building restrictions, so that people with 60+ could even theoretically have all 5 * cards.

That being said, I'm not worried about it, I'm only at roughl 11-13 cards or so haha. Still working on my Zodiac weapon -.-

Do you even RNG ?

I Know right? Where is this guarantee four star coming from? I've seen tonnes of complaint where people are geting 5x1* decks on random. Pretty sure that is the big gripe about RR.

[ExiaQuanta]

sometimes it feels like having more cards is a drawback and playing random with npc is best at early TT Game. Cause you know...more cards.....less chance to draw the cards you want.......



There is a reason why pple keep their yugioh decks as low as 40 cards

P.S. I hate you Random Rowena, I want my louiswab card.

[Kharhaz]

Alright, I'll admit that I made a mistake with the assumption that you were always given one card thats one star about your deck rank. I made this statement with no proof, and based it off of my memory, because I seemed to always get at least one card that was three star or higher with 58 cards, so I assumed you were just given a face card because you're supposed to have one. This is no better than anyone else who made false statements without proof, but I don't have a problem admitting when I'm wrong.

In any case, I was afraid you would try to analyze that strategy, and it was pretty much based off of memory because whenever ifrit was placed bottom left, I would win no matter what pattern he used. So let's get to the bottom of this problem...

However, since I've gone back to test my theory on Landenel, I've found that its actually very possible to win with at worst, 4 one star cards and a face card, and you can still get a draw with pretty much any hand (I don't want to go test this with a starter deck, someone else can do that). I'm currently creating a log of my matches with screenshots of the start and outcome, for now this is an example of how I won with a "bad deck". I have no doubt that I could write up a complete defined strategy, but I will touch back on that later.

Anyway, here's one that I just felt was appropriate because of how badly Landenel played.

Draw: Terrible
Prediction: Certain defeat or draw

For my first move I place a Scarface on top left.

Reason: It's advantageous for me if he takes it with Ifrit, Titan, or Gerolt, because I can easily recapture my card and there's almost no chance that you will not have any cards that can beat a strength of 1. Other outcomes are quite possible, but these outcomes will give you the most advantage.

Risk: He might decide to take my Scarface with Chocobo, this is usually bad because because you may not the right cards to play from left to right (right to left is far easier to win) and it may not be possible to force Bahamut or Odin to a bad spot.



I'll admit this next part is mostly luck, I captured Ifrit with Sahagan (safe move, doesnt matter if I lose him), then he placed Gerolt under him for no reason (terrible move). Next I captured Gerolt with Y'shtola, I leave two sides exposed for a bait and recapture. However, Lanadel places Odin in the bottom left for absolutely no reason.

Now, yes this guarantees a win because of two bad AI moves in a row. However, if I had placed Y'shtola in any other spot I would have certainly lost. Furthermore, I don't believe there was any way for Landanel to beat me once I had claimed the middle and eliminated the possibility for him to capture more than one card with any move.

Even if he happened to have both Bahamut and Odin, the best outcome for him would be a draw.

Outcome: Victory
Reason: Luck

This one is luck, but it shows that you can still win a terrible draw. However, despite it being luck, I feel like I still would have won or tied unless he had Bahamut. My other point is that even if you can't win with a horrible draw of mostly or all one stars, it is still very possible to get a draw without having to rely on luck.

This next one, I would say that Landanel opened badly and that cost him the match, I don't think this constitutes as luck though, because he will go for captures in this way pretty commonly.

Draw: Terrible
Prediction: Certain defeat or draw

For my first move, I place Sylph on bottom middle.

Reason: Its more difficult for me to win when I have to play the first card, I chose this location because I just want to see the first card he plays while still having the possibility for an easy recapture. Additionally, the bottom row is safezone and it's good to not let Odin be placed on the bottom. Next, he takes it with Rhit (brownie points if you can spell it without looking it up, I can't), I was expecting him to put that same card or Ifrit to the right of Sylph instead, so actually perhaps that is kind of lucky. Anyway, I capture Rhit with Pudding, he takes Pudding with Gerolt. At this point, I realize that victory is pretty much guaranteed because he lets me get a double capture off and I have left no openings for him to double capture with Bahamut or Odin.

Risk: If he used Chocobo to the left of Sylph I would have probably lost badly



He leaves Odin exposed and is only able to capture one card, this is one of the best things that can happen because I am pretty much untouchable unless he has Bahamut.

Outcome: Victory
Reason: Landanel didn't have Bahamut and I was able to capture very good spots on the board. The L formation of cards in the middle is one of my favorite ways to prevent double captures.

Draw: Bad
Prediction: Draw

He places Titan in the usual spot, I decide to capture him early with Urianger, and he proceeds to capture mine with Ifrit. That's a bad move, but he tends to use Ifrit aggressively so it doesn't surprise me.



I capture Ifrit, he decides to put Gerolt in the corner.

Reason: I'm not ready to go for the middle, so securing Ifrit is a safe move and I hoped he would play Bahamut or Odin.

Next, I play Dodo in middle because I wanted to recapture Urianger and it is a disposable card and easily recaptured. There is no danger of a double capture because none of his cards are capable of taking both. He decides to take Dodo with Bahamut, at which point I assumed his next card is Odin, so the obvious move is to recapture Dodo, which leaves him with no possibility for victory.

Outcome: Victory

Reason: Landanel played too aggressively, I chose good good cards to capture and waited until the right time to place a card in middle.

Note: There are a lot of matches, I'm keeping a record and screenshotting the start and finish, but I am only taking multiple screenshots of myself at a disadvantage. I'm working on getting a few losses up where I had way better cards and lost to bad decisions. For now, here are some screenshots for 26 matches that show my hand and the result. I forgot to screenshot a few at the start or was too slow to get the result, so I omitted anything that wasn't a pair. I also feel that I played carelessly when I got good cards, but that kind of reinforces the point that having good cards isn't the issue here. I didn't add up the W/D/L for those matches, but I'm almost positive I had more wins than losses and more draws than wins, which means that I can win against Landenel more than I lose just like I said. I do wish I played more carefully when I got a good draw, but I'm not here to prove how good I am at TT, I'm here to debunk this idea that Landanel is too strong.

Assorted matches

[JayCommon]

sigh...

Kharkaz I've read through this entire thread and I'm almost positive that no one here asked for any kind of strategy. How do you not realize why you were being met with hostility? Did you read the OP, or just begin firing off comments to posters?

Nowhere in the OP does it ask for strategies. Nowhere does it say that the OP could not beat him if they got a favorable set-up. This entire thread was created because of the multi-RNG dip that we get when playing "Random" opponents. RNG whether or not we get a good hand, RNG where you can play a card with A's on it if you happen to get one, RNG to win period....

In your instances above you have Draw: Terrible, but both of those cards have at least one 3* card in it. I would wildly beg to differ that those hands are "terrible". Very consistently I will get dealt a full 1 star deck. I'm not sure what that deck classifies as if a deck with a 3* in it is "terrible". You can outline 18,000 different strategies, and bait as best as possible but there is no consistent, viable way to win when you actually get a "terrible" deck. I will reiterate, both of the decks you list as "terrible" are MALMS better than what I usually get.

You are just completely missing the entire point of this thread and are "contributing" things that I don't believe anyone ever asked for, and then telling us we refuse to listen to help. You are also categorizing every single person in this thread as "complainers" when there was quite literally 1 or 2 people who may have copped an internet attitude with you.


If you can tell me how in the flying f$%# you can end up with at least 1 3* card in your deck every single match, that will be advice I will listen to! As it is, I can take your "terrible" decks and get wins also.


What is your strategy when your deck consists of: Bomb, Mandragora, Moogle, Sahagin and Coeurl? Because my strat for that deck is "finish this shit as quickly as possible because I can't win"

And then I get variants of that same crap hand 10 times in a row. It is frustrating, not difficult.


THAT is what people are "complaining" about. And you don't have to agree with the rest of the people, that is totally fine. But if you don't agree, you also don't need to derail this thread any further than it already has been. If you can't understand the simplicity of the qualm, then your "advice and help" is actually the exact opposite of that, because I'm fairly sure that anyone who takes the time to come into a sub-forum to discuss a game is pretty serious about it, and are more than capable of formulating a strategy on a game based off concepts you learn in kindergarten (i.e. which number is larger??????)

For the record, I have beaten Landenel several times and got Odin from him (I got Titan from Trachtoum). I enjoy going from NPC to NPC (as opposed to mindlessly farming the Imperial all day) every once in a while just to switch it up. I play Swift regularly. Chaos sucks, but at least I have control of the deck I use.

Nothing about the current way "Random" is set-up, is fun. I will not be going back to play Landenel because any win you get is still completely reliant on your luck of the draw.