The random rule is not okay

[Kharhaz]

Alright, I'll admit that I made a mistake with the assumption that you were always given one card thats one star about your deck rank. I made this statement with no proof, and based it off of my memory, because I seemed to always get at least one card that was three star or higher with 58 cards, so I assumed you were just given a face card because you're supposed to have one. This is no better than anyone else who made false statements without proof, but I don't have a problem admitting when I'm wrong.

In any case, I was afraid you would try to analyze that strategy, and it was pretty much based off of memory because whenever ifrit was placed bottom left, I would win no matter what pattern he used. So let's get to the bottom of this problem...

However, since I've gone back to test my theory on Landenel, I've found that its actually very possible to win with at worst, 4 one star cards and a face card, and you can still get a draw with pretty much any hand (I don't want to go test this with a starter deck, someone else can do that). I'm currently creating a log of my matches with screenshots of the start and outcome, for now this is an example of how I won with a "bad deck". I have no doubt that I could write up a complete defined strategy, but I will touch back on that later.

Anyway, here's one that I just felt was appropriate because of how badly Landenel played.

Draw: Terrible
Prediction: Certain defeat or draw

For my first move I place a Scarface on top left.

Reason: It's advantageous for me if he takes it with Ifrit, Titan, or Gerolt, because I can easily recapture my card and there's almost no chance that you will not have any cards that can beat a strength of 1. Other outcomes are quite possible, but these outcomes will give you the most advantage.

Risk: He might decide to take my Scarface with Chocobo, this is usually bad because because you may not the right cards to play from left to right (right to left is far easier to win) and it may not be possible to force Bahamut or Odin to a bad spot.



I'll admit this next part is mostly luck, I captured Ifrit with Sahagan (safe move, doesnt matter if I lose him), then he placed Gerolt under him for no reason (terrible move). Next I captured Gerolt with Y'shtola, I leave two sides exposed for a bait and recapture. However, Lanadel places Odin in the bottom left for absolutely no reason.

Now, yes this guarantees a win because of two bad AI moves in a row. However, if I had placed Y'shtola in any other spot I would have certainly lost. Furthermore, I don't believe there was any way for Landanel to beat me once I had claimed the middle and eliminated the possibility for him to capture more than one card with any move.

Even if he happened to have both Bahamut and Odin, the best outcome for him would be a draw.

Outcome: Victory
Reason: Luck

This one is luck, but it shows that you can still win a terrible draw. However, despite it being luck, I feel like I still would have won or tied unless he had Bahamut. My other point is that even if you can't win with a horrible draw of mostly or all one stars, it is still very possible to get a draw without having to rely on luck.

This next one, I would say that Landanel opened badly and that cost him the match, I don't think this constitutes as luck though, because he will go for captures in this way pretty commonly.

Draw: Terrible
Prediction: Certain defeat or draw

For my first move, I place Sylph on bottom middle.

Reason: Its more difficult for me to win when I have to play the first card, I chose this location because I just want to see the first card he plays while still having the possibility for an easy recapture. Additionally, the bottom row is safezone and it's good to not let Odin be placed on the bottom. Next, he takes it with Rhit (brownie points if you can spell it without looking it up, I can't), I was expecting him to put that same card or Ifrit to the right of Sylph instead, so actually perhaps that is kind of lucky. Anyway, I capture Rhit with Pudding, he takes Pudding with Gerolt. At this point, I realize that victory is pretty much guaranteed because he lets me get a double capture off and I have left no openings for him to double capture with Bahamut or Odin.

Risk: If he used Chocobo to the left of Sylph I would have probably lost badly



He leaves Odin exposed and is only able to capture one card, this is one of the best things that can happen because I am pretty much untouchable unless he has Bahamut.

Outcome: Victory
Reason: Landanel didn't have Bahamut and I was able to capture very good spots on the board. The L formation of cards in the middle is one of my favorite ways to prevent double captures.

Draw: Bad
Prediction: Draw

He places Titan in the usual spot, I decide to capture him early with Urianger, and he proceeds to capture mine with Ifrit. That's a bad move, but he tends to use Ifrit aggressively so it doesn't surprise me.



I capture Ifrit, he decides to put Gerolt in the corner.

Reason: I'm not ready to go for the middle, so securing Ifrit is a safe move and I hoped he would play Bahamut or Odin.

Next, I play Dodo in middle because I wanted to recapture Urianger and it is a disposable card and easily recaptured. There is no danger of a double capture because none of his cards are capable of taking both. He decides to take Dodo with Bahamut, at which point I assumed his next card is Odin, so the obvious move is to recapture Dodo, which leaves him with no possibility for victory.

Outcome: Victory

Reason: Landanel played too aggressively, I chose good good cards to capture and waited until the right time to place a card in middle.

Note: There are a lot of matches, I'm keeping a record and screenshotting the start and finish, but I am only taking multiple screenshots of myself at a disadvantage. I'm working on getting a few losses up where I had way better cards and lost to bad decisions. For now, here are some screenshots for 26 matches that show my hand and the result. I forgot to screenshot a few at the start or was too slow to get the result, so I omitted anything that wasn't a pair. I also feel that I played carelessly when I got good cards, but that kind of reinforces the point that having good cards isn't the issue here. I didn't add up the W/D/L for those matches, but I'm almost positive I had more wins than losses and more draws than wins, which means that I can win against Landenel more than I lose just like I said. I do wish I played more carefully when I got a good draw, but I'm not here to prove how good I am at TT, I'm here to debunk this idea that Landanel is too strong.

Assorted matches

[Aeyis]

snip

First off: very well written and concise post.
Agree with nearly your all of your tactical approaches, altho with one or two points I disagree.

Firstly, those hands are certainly terrible, but only on their own accord. Below there is still another level of ''no chance at all'' that you can draw, the one where you don't have a 7/8. That said, I don't know which one is precisely more likely to appear in a 2* deck, so ill just assume they can both appear at a somewhat equal rate (for arguments sake).
Your layed out method shows very nicely how to go for beating Landanel (and apply similar tactics to Rowena) with this kind of gimped deck.


Secondly tho, I do feel all of the wins are down to ''luck''. Now as I said I quite agree with the way you moved all your cards.
However to take your last match as an example; at the end I would have assumed result: draw best case, worst case loss.

Draw: the more likely conclusion.
- Titan or his unknown was placed in the top left first. Had you placed a card in middle left or bottom left after, you would have lost 2 cards, so you would place it in top middle. He plays Odin or the remaining card on the left side, caps 1; you finish --> draw.
-He places a card in top middle. Considering the stats he has left, likely wont capture. If he uses bahamut will result in his win, if he not, your win unless he uses bahamut on the left side afterwards, resulting in a draw.
-If he uses bahamut in the middle left, your win due to having free placement and no cards that can be taken. If he uses any other card there, your win if you can exploit it without sylph being taken; otherwise draw.

Now the big one: if he used any card at all in the bottom left, it would have been his won. It would capture sylph, and allow him to capture your next card (with either odin or his unknown, depending on what you played)
As you say, even with the last cards position, if he had bahamut it would have resulted in a draw.


Altho I call it luck, it isnt exactly luck either. It is a weakness (?) in the NPCs programming it. It can be argued that exploiting that weakness is a very legit and viable strategy tho. (I personally agree with that) I would say that its pretty hard at this point to get an idea on how to do that with reliability.


In my opinion your examples all still rely on the NPC making mistakes in order to win. I've certainly seen NPCs do that quite a lot; but on the flip side ive always faced NPCs that felt like they were cheating, as they seemed to even position their cards based on my cards values.
(leaving a 4 side open when there was no need at all to do so, however I had no cards that could flip that side)
So personally I'm always expecting NPCs to flip the tables on the player at some point. Simply not making as many mistakes would make the harder ones a heck of a lot harder to beat.


That all said, indeed your approach will help a lot of people who are still struggling to defeat him stand a far better chance.

It would be a lot less painful with a 3 star deck tho. (which is mostly what I ment with ''high rate of success'', farmable with a >50% win ratio if you play well)
..Those times when you wield a party of cactuars aside.

Well, on the brightside of this discussion, fortunately he doesnt drop any 5 stars. So no need for hardcore grinding.