The random rule is not okay

**QT_Melon** · 03-04-2015 10:01 AM

I don't think so much the thread was about a chance to beat the NPC, but rather dealing with an NPC with low replay value due to the balance of this challenge. This makes a key difference. It's like why go to a dungeon with little replay value, and this NPC is being viewed as such. I have to agree this makes it problematic. Chiding people for not having more cards or saying they don't know the strategy isn't helpful as well. It's not addressing the core issue. I agree if the NPC had random cards in the deck it may at least make it more interesting.

On one hand it does make people do the Odin trial a bit more, but as far as enjoyment of a challenging match with an NPC, it's not there so much otherwise it would be a crowded NPC. Instead it's like the Aurum Vale of NPCs.

The only suggestions I can think of is hoping for a deck that pushes rows upward where it force the NPC to stick Odin up in the top, since it's the last card played due to the NPC's AI

**Erudain** · 03-04-2015 10:41 AM

after playing Landenel 2 hours today I managed to beat him 3 times....that's has to be an amazing rate of 3/40 games more or less....I have 52 cards and those 3 victories were with "decent" draws and him making some dumb play....
Ohh and didnt get the Odin card on those 3 victories.....starting to think farming the trial will be faster...

**Kharhaz** · 03-04-2015 11:04 AM

First off, you outright claimed that myself and Tadacho were wrong, purely based on the fact that you could not accomplish the same thing. I'm sure that people are going to get defensive or claim otherwise, but your posts certainly convey this message. In any case, this is what happened when I tried to post an explanation of one possible outcome:

"The text that you have entered is too long (2442 characters). Please shorten it to 1000 characters long."

So I'll split it up I guess...

Landenel does not have a spectacular deck either, Ifrit and Titan are hardly better than most 2 star cards and usually one of the two will usually be played first whether you can take it or not makes no difference because Landenel will always put them somewhere that is advantageous to you. Next, the ideal situation is Ifrit being placed on the bottom right, from here you can easily bait Bahamut or Odin if you've got a halfway decent card, Rhitathyn or Succubus work extremely well if you are lucky enough to pull one of them. Odin will either take it and leave himself exposed, or be placed on top of it for no effect. If he uses Bahamut that's still fine because you can easily capture him in that position. His other cards are nothing to worry about, but you need to prepare for the second 5 star, so at this point I pretty much try to trade cards with him in order to minimize the use of his remaining 5* (sometimes there is no second one, but better safe than sorry). This is why your cards for the most part don't matter, but I'd say you need at least 2 good corner cards and a halfway decent epic or legendary, your other two cards are simply used to block off the board and recapture or to take his exposed cards.

This is just a partial explanation of one possible outcome/flow of the match, it's not an exact science and there's some odd RNG, but there's nothing bad that will happen otherwise, and sometimes he will use odin defensively in the corner or something and sets up the possibility to take him for free with your legendary. If you analyze the sides of his cards, you should know what directions he can take, and which he can not at all times, the right side of the board is a very good place to start, and you will realize that you do not need as many good cards as you may think, because your defenses will be set up by taking his exposed cards. This is why I say that brute force is a bad way to go about it, I'm not afraid to sacrifice cards to control the board because I can easily take them back later, I know which spots are best to bait and which are best played defensively, as well as which spots are dangerous.

I spent my time developing a real strategy, while others spent their time complaining for no reason. This is why I am reluctant to help you.

Edit: I could elaborate a lot more, but I think I got my point across. Which is that people are focusing on the wrong aspects of this matchup and are not noticing his obvious weaknesses because they think his cards are too strong. A human being has the ability to think, NPCs do not.

**Aeyis** · 03-04-2015 01:05 PM

Originally Posted by Kharhaz

First off, you outright claimed that myself and Tadacho were wrong, purely based on the fact that you could not accomplish the same thing. I'm sure that people are going to get defensive or claim otherwise, but your posts certainly convey this message. In any case, this is what happened when I tried to post an explanation of one possible outcome:

Where did you see this written? This not about players ability with TT, or specifically, my ability with the game.
It's about facts regarding how difficult, or easy it is to win with a good rate.

Based on my own, and many others experience, we logically deduced that with only a medium level deck, it's definately possible to beat NPCs who use the Random rule. However, your win rate will be quite poor and that includes needing to abuse the NPCs faulty programming.

My posts did not in any way or shape convey the message you say.
Tadacho's advice was good, but it was advice ment for stronger opponents in general, and does not help with the Random rule. I do believe he did make his own arguments solid by mentioning at the end that indeed, those tips do not guaranty a good win rate, but they will help improve it.

Originally Posted by Kharhaz

Landenel does not have a spectacular deck either, Ifrit and Titan are hardly better than most 2 star cards and usually one of the two will usually be played first whether you can take it or not makes no difference because Landenel will always put them somewhere that is advantageous to you.

How is a 7/7 combo placed in a corner in any way an advantageous for a 2 star deck? Not a single 2 star can flip that.

Originally Posted by Kharhaz

Next, the ideal situation is Ifrit being placed on the bottom right, from here you can easily bait Bahamut or Odin if you've got a halfway decent card, Rhitathyn or Succubus work extremely well if you are lucky enough to pull one of them. Odin will either take it and leave himself exposed, or be placed on top of it for no effect.

I honestly dont recall if ive ever seen a NPC allow a 4 star primal to be exposed on its single weak side. The only thing that could cause that to happen is the ''stupid mistake'' everyone talks about. Its pretty hard to pull it off without just the right cards tho.

Originally Posted by Kharhaz

If he uses Bahamut that's still fine because you can easily capture him in that position. His other cards are nothing to worry about, but you need to prepare for the second 5 star, so at this point I pretty much try to trade cards with him in order to minimize the use of his remaining 5* (sometimes there is no second one, but better safe than sorry). This is why your cards for the most part don't matter, but I'd say you need at least 2 good corner cards and a halfway decent epic or legendary, your other two cards are simply used to block off the board and recapture or to take his exposed cards.

That's the thing about random tho. I've had decks with 1 3 star, and 1 4 star, the rest all 1 star's. All of his cards have atleast 1 7, meaning that you can't block him in a corner with a 2 star. Altho bahamut could be taken if he uses that, it relies on you actually having a 6(7)+ on his unprotected weak side. In my last match, the only card that had that was levi. Leaving its weak side (a 1) unprotected, and since I had no means to retake it, it would have been a card swap.

Originally Posted by Kharhaz

This is just a partial explanation of one possible outcome/flow of the match, it's not an exact science and there's some odd RNG, but there's nothing bad that will happen otherwise, and sometimes he will use odin defensively in the corner or something and sets up the possibility to take him for free with your legendary. If you analyze the sides of his cards, you should know what directions he can take, and which he can not at all times, the right side of the board is a very good place to start, and you will realize that you do not need as many good cards as you may think, because your defenses will be set up by taking his exposed cards. This is why I say that brute force is a bad way to go about it, I'm not afraid to sacrifice cards to control the board because I can easily take them back later, I know which spots are best to bait and which are best played defensively, as well as which spots are dangerous.

Noone mentioned trying to brute force it. Odin is typically used as second last card. That mean's it's very hard to attempt to defend against it, since it has 3 sides that can likely take all of your adjacent cards; let alone take Odin.
His cards exposed sides are usually well protected. Sacrificing cards is certainly the right way to go about this, however if most of your opponents cards can flip 2-3 sides at once; then you are fighting a war of attrition at best.
[QUOTE=Kharhaz;2815246]
I spent my time developing a real strategy, while others spent their time complaining for no reason. This is why I am reluctant to help you.
[quote]
This is the first time you bothered responded to others with arguments of your own; instead of simply saying it is the case.

We did give examples of why it is not so easy to beat a Random rule opponent.

Originally Posted by Kharhaz

Edit: I could elaborate a lot more, but I think I got my point across. Which is that people are focusing on the wrong aspects of this matchup and are not noticing his obvious weaknesses because they think his cards are too strong. A human being has the ability to think, NPCs do not.

Human beings have the ability to make mistakes despite their programming, NPCs can be flawless if their programming is.
His cards are too strong.

I would not missjudge people so easily by the way. Many people on these forums that are discussing TT have 50+ cards, and many hours spend playing TT.
Just because they have a different opinion then you does not mean ''all they do is complain''
To me it sounds like you are the one trying to prove your right.

Summary: Opponents with strong decks who use the Random rule can definately be beating by a medium level deck. Noone claimed otherwise. But due to the nature of the Random rule; it's impossible to beat them with a good success rate unless you have a 3 star deck. And even with a 3 star deck; this can happen:

**SummonerSenah** · 03-04-2015 12:49 PM

I have around 40 something cards now and so I decided to try Landenel again. I still lose quite a bit when I don't get anything other than one star cards. But if I get two star cards and one of the higher cards, I usually draw or win. I got five Titan cards off of him today. I bait him with low cards directly in the middle. They are easy to take back with some of your better cards later. I'll try to post some of my winning games later.

**Nanaya** · 03-04-2015 01:43 PM

Random would be fine if the NPCs using it had a larger card sample size to random out of. As it stands now, they have like 7-8 cards they can random 5 out of, and all of them are pretty solid choices. And while increasing your own deck with stronger cards increases the odds of getting something usable, you are still at the mercy of RNG. Not entirely sure what the developers expect me to do with a herd of one stars and a Memeroon, but evidently there is a path to victory with this pathetic motley crew against Bahamut, Odin, and Titan. I've already ransacked Landenel of his cards, to be totally forthright, but it certainly was not a pleasant time, nor do I feel particularly accomplished about it. I just got a few dozen good dice rolls for deck synergy, that's about it.

Seems to me the most obvious approach to alleviate this issue is the just increase the card pool for these Random NPCs. I'm not saying they need all the cards the player has, but at least a dozen cards to choose from would be a bit more reasonable.

**Mook_Mook** · 03-04-2015 04:55 PM

I got odin from that guy and random is a dumb rule. it offers no synergies no sound play. Just hope you get a deck that can compete and if you dont oh well. Its rng at its worst. Allow players to make a 10 card deck that will make it more tolerable as they will have a smaller pool to choose from and give some control. No one likes losing when you have no control.

**ExiaQuanta** · 03-05-2015 12:53 AM

sometimes it feels like having more cards is a drawback and playing random with npc is best at early TT Game. Cause you know...more cards.....less chance to draw the cards you want.......

There is a reason why pple keep their yugioh decks as low as 40 cards

P.S. I hate you Random Rowena, I want my louiswab card.

**JayCommon** · 03-05-2015 02:12 AM

sigh...

Kharkaz I've read through this entire thread and I'm almost positive that no one here asked for any kind of strategy. How do you not realize why you were being met with hostility? Did you read the OP, or just begin firing off comments to posters?

Nowhere in the OP does it ask for strategies. Nowhere does it say that the OP could not beat him if they got a favorable set-up. This entire thread was created because of the multi-RNG dip that we get when playing "Random" opponents. RNG whether or not we get a good hand, RNG where you can play a card with A's on it if you happen to get one, RNG to win period....

In your instances above you have Draw: Terrible, but both of those cards have at least one 3* card in it. I would wildly beg to differ that those hands are "terrible". Very consistently I will get dealt a full 1 star deck. I'm not sure what that deck classifies as if a deck with a 3* in it is "terrible". You can outline 18,000 different strategies, and bait as best as possible but there is no consistent, viable way to win when you actually get a "terrible" deck. I will reiterate, both of the decks you list as "terrible" are MALMS better than what I usually get.

You are just completely missing the entire point of this thread and are "contributing" things that I don't believe anyone ever asked for, and then telling us we refuse to listen to help. You are also categorizing every single person in this thread as "complainers" when there was quite literally 1 or 2 people who may have copped an internet attitude with you.

If you can tell me how in the flying f$%# you can end up with at least 1 3* card in your deck every single match, that will be advice I will listen to! As it is, I can take your "terrible" decks and get wins also.

What is your strategy when your deck consists of: Bomb, Mandragora, Moogle, Sahagin and Coeurl? Because my strat for that deck is "finish this shit as quickly as possible because I can't win"

And then I get variants of that same crap hand 10 times in a row. It is frustrating, not difficult.

THAT is what people are "complaining" about. And you don't have to agree with the rest of the people, that is totally fine. But if you don't agree, you also don't need to derail this thread any further than it already has been. If you can't understand the simplicity of the qualm, then your "advice and help" is actually the exact opposite of that, because I'm fairly sure that anyone who takes the time to come into a sub-forum to discuss a game is pretty serious about it, and are more than capable of formulating a strategy on a game based off concepts you learn in kindergarten (i.e. which number is larger??????)

For the record, I have beaten Landenel several times and got Odin from him (I got Titan from Trachtoum). I enjoy going from NPC to NPC (as opposed to mindlessly farming the Imperial all day) every once in a while just to switch it up. I play Swift regularly. Chaos sucks, but at least I have control of the deck I use.

Nothing about the current way "Random" is set-up, is fun. I will not be going back to play Landenel because any win you get is still completely reliant on your luck of the draw.

**Kharhaz** · 03-05-2015 03:03 AM