So I was kicked from Halatali today

[Taika]

Healers are the only group members for whom it's commonly seen as acceptable to spend your majority of time being completely useless to the group (either by spamming heals on party members who don't need them or simply standing still doing nothing). If a DD or tank would do the same the kick would have been seen as justified.

I have never kicked a healer who only heals, and I probably never will, but with a lot of healing experience from all the dungeons seeing someone do that is painful. At least I can now share the pain with my partner who has taken to leveling SCH and noticed he usually doesn't have to cast a single heal during the whole dungeons and ends up as the top DPS in low level dungeons way too often (while everyone else stays alive, of course).

[Skyhunter]

Only 1000 characters to respond (nooby restriction maybe) but I just wanted to add a bit of feedback.

I think a lot of players are taking two extremes. You have Seravi saying I need to do more and stop being lazy, and she is correct, but at the same time she's not understanding that I am a month into the game. I have had access to the Holy spell for all of a week or two. Not only that but I am playing dungeons with OTHER players who are just as inexperienced as myself. Sometimes it goes fine and I could have DPS'ed, but than I remember how 5 minutes ago my team all but myself wiped on one single bomb detonation and I think "Maybe I'll play it safe".

When I play the level 50 content right now, I do make full use of Cleric Stance. I am still getting used to using multiple ability bars, my gear is not end-game. In the Morbol beds I use Holy as long as Regen is keeping the tank from dying, against bosses I use Medica II and Regen so I can get my aeros and a few Stone II out.

[Skyhunter]

To add a reply to Cynfael though, he makes valid points as well. I have had two weeks experience with the healer role and yet I am nigh condemned to hell for letting a party member die while at the same time being heavily criticized for "standing still". There needs to be a little more understanding of players who are starting out with no experience.

Personally, my only other MMORPG I have played is RuneScape, and if you know what that is you know I haven't really played an MMORPG before with any significant roles to learn. I feel like, being two weeks into the healer experience, the fact that I can run some of the expert level dungeons for the first time without dying to the many boss mechanics while still, on occasion, helping to DPS a little bit is pretty decent progress to be made.

EDIT: I just wanted to throw this out there that another problem with the lack of tolerance is you will get situations like the thread by Satori that was just put up recently. Older players, you have got to understand, we simply can't KNOW everything in the first month or even first few months of the game. If there's anything to be gleaned from my 9-10 years of playing RuneScape, it's that massive games take a lot of time to learn and perfect. A fresh level 50 healer is not going to know just when and how to DPS. A player running the Praetorium for the first time is not going to understand why the heck nobody is waiting for him (and the older players seem to have forgotten that this is, in fact, the final boss for an epic story). What is small and insignificant to a player with all their classes at level 50 is going to seem like a very daunting task for someone who just acquired their first 50 class and who is wearing the gear they got from doing so.

[Taika]

Players who are new to their role and job definitely need to be cut some slack and most importantly support and advice. There's also a difference between trying / learning and being lazy.

[Skyhunter]

So then am I trying? Or am I being lazy? Furthermore, who should be the one to decide? Myself? Or the other players?

I believe the ideal situation would be for anybody that is new to be able to try and fail without risk if being kicked/beat down for that as well. It's something that takes cooperation and input on both ends, I believe, just like any learning experience. You have to be pushed a little, and the ones teaching have to know when to stop pushing and let you grow strong enough for the next push.

I do know one thing though, and that's that I always received the most positive feedback when I played how I was comfortable doing so (some days DPS'ing to help, others healing only because the DPS were reliable with their damage). I ran Halatali again today with a player new to tanking and a mage with green leaves, and the tank had no idea what he was doing whatsoever. I've never tanked before but I explained to him that he needed to pay close attention to the icons indicating his aggro level with adds, that he needed to not focus only on one add and let the DPS take care of the killing, and that he needed to use abilities such as Flash to keep aggro. After I explained that, he did great and and we cleared with no further issues.

I could have told him to keep the aggro on him and stop being worthless, and I could have told the newbie to vote-kick him so that we could beat the dungeon easier. I did not, though, and we got through quite alright. I like to think as he gets further along, other tanks with much more experience than myself will be welcoming to him in an area he is still growing comfortable with. Certainly a blunt kick would have helped no one.

[Nerael]

About 10 minutes in, one of the DPS tells me to stop being worthless and help DPS or I'm going to get kicked.

Main class WHM here.
As many say: Healing is your Priority DPS is not. Your job is to keep people alive to the best of your abilities, end of discussion.

Can you deal some extra DPS? Yes. Should you? Preferably. It is by no means a requirement or a must.

I myself only stance dance when comfortable. With a lot of healing experience under my belt and know how of instances it becomes quite predictable when people start to take damage and thus you can react accordingly.

I will not however immediately jump into cleric stance. I'll watch them do a few thrash mob groups to see how the tank is, how squishy everyone is. How big are my heals etc. This will let me make an accurate assessment of the group and if it is viable Responsible to be DPSing.

[Skyhunter]

Main class WHM here.
As many say: Healing is your Priority DPS is not. Your job is to keep people alive to the best of your abilities, end of discussion.

Can you deal some extra DPS? Yes. Should you? Preferably. It is by no means a requirement or a must.

And see this is a helpful response. Absolutely, I should do all I can. However, reasonably, having just started the game in February and played up to and through The Praetorium as a DPS, my experience as a healer is very little and has room to improve. But I can't become as good as a player who has been at this for a year in simply a week or two. It's not really a logical assumption and, to be honest, if I COULD become that good that fast, than I should either go and get a job as a professional game player, or go find a game that has a real challenge to it. However, that is not the case with this game, it takes time to practice all the tricks of the trade.

[Taika]

So then am I trying? Or am I being lazy? Furthermore, who should be the one to decide? Myself? Or the other players?

Usually you can see if someone is trying or being lazy. For example, yesterday in Tamtara easy I had a SCH who put someone on follow, said "afk making coffee", let fairy do all the healing and commented how he loves low level dungeons as SCH. This guy was not trying. The other day I had a WHM in Halatali easy who during the first boss (Fire elemental thing) shouted to the 2 melee DDs to run and kill the adds while tank wasn't taking any damage and she could have easily killed them one-shotting with cleric-stance Aero. She wasn't really trying either (in fact I felt she was telling us to do her job and causing the fight last longer than it should have). In other situations I've seen healers who mostly just heal but do throw occasional Aeros (even if without CS) when there's only 1-2 monsters left and everyone is in good health. Those are the new people who are learning and trying, although not playing optimally.

Certainly a blunt kick would have helped no one.

I don't agree with blunt kicks in situations where someone is not just doing well. And I certainly don't agree with you being kicked from your run, based on your description on the situation. Sub-optimal or even bad play is not a reason for kick in DF dungeon group as long as the person isn't clearly trolling everyone or being completely detrimental to the group (for example a DD who just runs ahead pulling everything to the group killing everyone over and over).

[ChameleonMS]

Why is my stance invalid just because I'm on top of the game? Why is it not applicable just because others are not where I am? It's the same advice: try. Do something. Fail so that you know how to succeed. This is how DPS maximize DPS, how tanks maximize DPS, and healers maximize DPS + minimize excess healing.
You can replace the word "laziness" with whatever makes you feel better but it is what it is. A lack of skill is perfectly fixable. A lack of effort is generally not.

Invalid, no, that is your opinion and you are entitled to it; IMO, it is excessive. Your expectation of player behaviour is slanted toward cream of the crop skill/behaviour. Life as whole is not at the cream of the crop. Expecting every player to play at the cream of the crop level an unreasonable expectation for society.

Let me propose a situations to you:
You are a team leader of 6 people.
Members 1-4 are highly skilled and competent.
Member 5 is moderately skilled and very dedicated.
Member 6 is poorly skilled and unsure of himself.

Are you going to ?
1. Educate and encourage members 5 and 6.
2. Educate and encourage member 6 and fire member 5.
3. Educate and encourage member 5 and fire member 6.
4. Fire members 5 and 6.

A consequence of firing a worker is loss of productivity, and time spent replacing that worker.
Applying this analogy back to the described instance OP talked about, he was member 5 and got fired. Would you also fire member 5? Or would you choose another option?
You might attempt to argue that he was given a chance to improve before he was fired, the stated warning he was given. There definitely was no encouragement though, it was definitely a threat.

The reason you and players that share you opinion will find so much flak is because it the opinion without compassion and patience. Two desirable qualities in a person according to society.

[Ignnis]

DPSing is not your main roll, you're a WHM not a BLM but dancing the stance dance earns you extra brownie points and (usually) my com.

DPS when you feel comfortable, don't DPS if you don't trust the tank, don't feel you have the MP or have the worlds most suicidal party members. I always try to DPS but that being said if I don't I'll apologise to the party before the btching starts, usually calms people down before they get pent up rage.