[dev1026] Changes to Claiming and Engaging Enemies

[Physic]

The whole "future content will be instanced" comment is in response to people who have concerns that the claiming system will be like XI in that it will cause a lot of competition for spawns. Keeping it in that context it hardly means "the death of open world content" it is just there to assuage fears that all content will be heavily competed.

FFXI did the exact same thing and never abandoned open world content. We have an open world dungeon coming in 1.19, we have open world NM's coming in 1.19, and we have a high level open world "dungeon" coming in 1.2, with more planned later.

You people need to stop overreacting over translated Developer responses to arguments in Japanese which you do not understand and then twisting it out of context with everything the developers have laid out for their actual plans for this game.

Its already been officially translated man.

If its not the message they wanted to send in answer to the same questions we have over here, then they wouldnt do translations.

[Murugan]

Its already been officially translated man.

I'm sorry that you still don't comprehend what he is talking about then. I enjoy reingharts translation but they seem to have forced the official reps to do the same (and unfortunately they don't do a much better job), and the result is that you take this stuff out of context and it is easy to see how people are misled.

He is talking about how such a claiming system will work with multiple forms of currently non-existant content, future plans, and responding to a thread full of people discussing the topic. You have none of that context unfortunately in even the "officially translated" post, so you have people jumping to conclusions that "oh no all or even the vast majority of future content is going to be instanced", which is just absurd because nothing like that was ever said, and instead we have confirmation of loads of open world content on the horizon.

Likewise you have people claiming that Power Leveling ala XI is coming to the game, when that also was never said. Yoshi appears to spend all day talking with developers about their future plans, then early in the morning weighs in on Japanese discussions, and what English players get is a translation of those responses which is really pretty confusing for people here.

[Commat]

the simple question, what does this open claim add to the game.

Not multiple claim, as in 1 group being able to claim more than one mob, because that should have been in place from the beginning.

What does being able to attack a claimed mob (because it is claimed, in terms of every possible benifit it could give you) add to the game?

nothing, except maybe an easier plevel.

What does it take away? Well basically overworld NMs and NM mechanics, would have to be built with the claiming system in mind, and all signs point to them doing nothing different about overworld NMs and overworld fighting mechanics to take advantage of the system they propose.
SOOOO essentially all it will do is create problems with NMs, or cause them to make overworld NMs cease to exist.

So overall, the system does more damage than good, and is a waste of development time.

I feel like you are reading into things that the dev's have not commented on.

For instance, right now SP is lessened if damage is done to a target before you claim it. Unless I missed some info, there is no reason to think that part of the system will change. Making it impossible for some 50 to run around killing hordes of monsters for an outside group that tags them.

As for NM content, Dako brought that up as well. I do feel that is a problem but I am confident SE will address how they will handle that kind of thing. Why? Idk, just feels to important an issue to leave alone without a different rule set.

[Physic]

I'm sorry that you still don't comprehend what he is talking about then.

i understand exactly what he is saying.

He is saying i dont think pleveling is a big deal, i think people should be able to help people to catch up.

I have some issues with that, but overall, we have pleveling already, making it more effecient isnt neccesarily the end of the world, though it is dangerous in some respects.

He re affirmed that open world content wont be that important other than for leveling, he has mentioned it before, the implication is that, hey dont worry about how it effects NMs, because the important stuff will be instanced. that is actually his answer in multiple responses, so i dont think its innaccurate, surely you yourself can realize the only way it wont matter if overworld NMs have problems is if the instanced content reward is the same or better.

In fact, if the instanced content ISNT the same or better, then it means the overworld NM issues are still a big deal, and a lot more should be put into making it work, or even thrive with his planned claim system. Yet nothing has been mentioned on that front.

So if the game isnt instanced for important content, the claim system is a problem, if the game is, then your saying goodbye to important overworld content. You cant have it both ways, unless the claim system is built into the overworld concept, which it he hasnt said it will be anywhere.

Also, instances will become more prevalent in future content. The concept of having to claim opponents to prevent being disturbed by other players becomes less and less relevant, so we decided that claiming is unnecessary.

can that be anymore clear? he is basically saying the game is going to be more focused on instances. in fact thats the first line.

We plan on implementing end-game content that is extremely difficult, so if assistance is necessary to reach this point I believe that it should be OK for players to help each other out, as long as there are players who are willing to help out.

this part shows the focus is on endgame, which is another major thing people are worried about, pleveling makes it seem like the game is just about getting to endgame, and this part of his explanation makes it seem like that is also his vision as well. So yeah people see what he is saying, its what he is saying that they do not like.

[Physic]

I feel like you are reading into things that the dev's have not commented on.

For instance, right now SP is lessened if damage is done to a target before you claim it. Unless I missed some info, there is no reason to think that part of the system will change. Making it impossible for some 50 to run around killing hordes of monsters for an outside group that tags them.

As for NM content, Dako brought that up as well. I do feel that is a problem but I am confident SE will address how they will handle that kind of thing. Why? Idk, just feels to important an issue to leave alone without a different rule set.

in the new claim system the plevel plan will be, let plevelee tap the monster, then pleveler kills it. The pleveler doesnt need to be in the pt to do this. So it wouldnt be a case where its weakened first.

As for NM content, his reply to people worrying about NM content was, dont worry bout overworld NMs, most of the important stuff will be instanced. If this is his answer the implication is that they wont do much about open NMs and the problems this system creates, because he doesnt think it will be a big deal.
It suggest he has no new mechanics or plans built around this claiming system with regards to NMs.

[Davorok]

Originally Posted by Naoki_Yoshida

Why the claiming system will be removed
When considering large scale PvE content involving multiple parties and PvP between large numbers of players...

Securing reward rights
Up next is the decision on the right to obtain rewards.
This regards who has the right to obtain experience points, dropped items, and quest completion flags when multiple parties (including solo players) attack the same monster.

This is the only part that concerns me. I am imagining an FFXI Campaign and/or Beseiged type large scale PvE event where multiple parties and soloers are ganging up on Garlean Machina in order to "win" the event. If I gain nothing by helping someone else defeat an enemy, then why should I even try?

If there is no exp and/or loot dropped from each enemy but rather everyone is awarded exp and loot at the end of the battle, then I don't see a problem however, that means that the system does need to track each participants damage and/or healing to determine the proper rewards.

But if I get nothing for helping another player or party, I'm just gonna watch and hope they wipe, then try to steal the claim (esp. if it's an NM).

[Murugan]

i understand exactly what he is saying.

He is saying i dont think pleveling is a big deal, i think people should be able to help people to catch up.

I have some issues with that, but overall, we have pleveling already, making it more effecient isnt neccesarily the end of the world, though it is dangerous in some respects.

He re affirmed that open world content wont be that important other than for leveling, he has mentioned it before, the implication is that, hey dont worry about how it effects NMs, because the important stuff will be instanced. that is actually his answer in multiple responses, so i dont think its innaccurate, surely you yourself can realize the only way it wont matter if overworld NMs have problems is if the instanced content reward is the same or better.

In fact, if the instanced content ISNT the same or better, then it means the overworld NM issues are still a big deal, and a lot more should be put into making it work, or even thrive with his planned claim system. Yet nothing has been mentioned on that front.

So if the game isnt instanced for important content, the claim system is a problem, if the game is, then your saying goodbye to important overworld content. You cant have it both ways, unless the claim system is built into the overworld concept, which it he hasnt said it will be anywhere.

Fixed, because you took what he said out of context as proof of an intent to do away with open world content, this was never said and the fact is we currently have concrete plans to add more open world content (in fact right now there is a hell of a lot more open world stuff being planned than instanced) which is probably why he felt the need to clarify that there would be lots of instanced content in the future:

for people who are afraid the "first party to attack gets claim" system which is identical to how it is now, and how XI does it will mean that all/most/too much (endgame/important) content will be potentially be restricted by competition.

[Physic]

Fixed, because you took what he said out of context as proof of an intent to do away with open world content, this was never said and the fact is we currently have concrete plans to add more open world content (in fact right now there is a hell of a lot more open world stuff being planned than instanced) which is probably why he felt the need to clarify that there would be lots of instanced content in the future:

for people who are afraid the "first party to attack gets claim" system which is identical to how it is now, and how XI does it will mean that all/most/too much (endgame/important) content will be potentially be restricted by competition.

see my quotes i added of his text, he says, that instances will become prevalent to the point that people wont be competing over overworld resources. That is what he says, and why claiming wont be an issue. It is perfectly justified for people to worry that the overworlds value will be diminished because all indications are that it will be, he says it will be. To the point that people wont have much competition for overworld resources.

Also, instances will become more prevalent in future content. The concept of having to claim opponents to prevent being disturbed by other players becomes less and less relevant, so we decided that claiming is unnecessary.

To davorak, thats my major concern, its not about the anyone can help aspect, it just seems that with the reward system going completely to the first person in all respects, it serves no larger purpose other than helping people without being in their party. Like i said, if large scale pve has you fighting for your life and spending your time with any contribution you make to helping others have no value, or in fact negative value, because you could be doing something else, then its a bad system.

[Dargoth_Draconia]

The game is 90% instanced content?

Even if we include 1.19 and quantify "content" as only dungeons/NM/quests it is not even close.

There will be 5 instanced raids, 1 open world dungeon, dozens of open world NM's, open world invasion events, and plenty of open world quests (some which have instanced content). That's not 90% by far, and just because they said that they plan to put a lot of endgame content in instances does not mean it will ever be anywhere close to 90%.

If they were abandoning open world content in favor of mostly instanced I imagine we wouldn't have plans for 2 open world dungeon areas and open world NM's they recently announced.

Before you get ahead of yourself I was simply replying to Meowie he/she said that they didn't want the game to be 90% instanced based. I wasn't saying it currently is by any means, atm 90% of the game is open world content and 10% instanced dungeons if that. I was just throwing the number that Meowie said out there back to make whatever point I was trying to make. You are right even with 1.20 even then it wouldn't be 90% instanced based but down the road it may possibly reach that number.

This is the only part that concerns me. I am imagining an FFXI Campaign and/or Beseiged type large scale PvE event where multiple parties and soloers are ganging up on Garlean Machina in order to "win" the event. If I gain nothing by helping someone else defeat an enemy, then why should I even try?

If there is no exp and/or loot dropped from each enemy but rather everyone is awarded exp and loot at the end of the battle, then I don't see a problem however, that means that the system does need to track each participants damage and/or healing to determine the proper rewards.

But if I get nothing for helping another player or party, I'm just gonna watch and hope they wipe, then try to steal the claim (esp. if it's an NM).

I am sure that they have thought of those problems and that will be handled. It allows them to have the system they built and it will be open for tweaks and fixes and patches easier than the current system that we have. Area based content like that everyone will probably reap rewards for hitting the mobs or helping, beseiged was like that wasn't it? Been so long I can't remember, anyone could go up and attack anything and get rewarded for it in the end? That's probably how it will work for events/content that are of that fashion. Also remember none of the stuff is set it stone after they release the patch and things need to be fixed and tweaked they will do so accordingly so the system isn't unfair.

[Sylvari]

"new players who would like some help, because they want to play with their friends as soon as possible, as well as players who are willing to sacrifice their own time to help out new players get involved in the game quicker."

I totally agree with this view point.