[dev1026] Changes to Claiming and Engaging Enemies

[Kiote]

The system doesn't encourage power leveling, it encourages community assistance. Power leveling has not ever been a serious problem because the people who power level do so to play with the people they are power leveling. This system isn't going to lead to a mass of noobs trying to infect your game play experience.

Odds are the "Power Leveling" you people are referring to will not be significantly faster than standard partying due to something like loss of chain or lack of links.

[Commat]

Can someone help me out? I've read through most of this topic and I can't figure out why people are against the new claiming system besides fears over power leveling(which happens in every MMO). A detailed list of problems would help if someone has the time.

The new system reads solid to me. I mean, we are going from a system where I get nothing for killing stuff because I am killing other stuff, to a system where I get rewarded for killing as many stuffs as I want. Sounds like an upgrade, right?

[Murugan]

Can someone help me out? I've read through most of this topic and I can't figure out why people are against the new claiming system besides fears over power leveling(which happens in every MMO). A detailed list of problems would help if someone has the time.

The new system reads solid to me. I mean, we are going from a system where I get nothing for killing stuff because I am killing other stuff, to a system where I get rewarded for killing as many stuffs as I want. Sounds like an upgrade, right?

Well you see Chicken Little was hit on the head by an acorn, and being only a chick she is convinced this means the sky is falling. So she embarks on a journey to warn everyone about how serious this problem is. Eventually she comes across a fox who tells her that the only way she can save herself and her new friends (who have jumped on the sky is falling bandwagon) is to come into his cave. I don't want to spoil the rest of the story.

[Davorok]

Originally Posted by Naoki_Yoshida

Why the claiming system will be removed
When considering large scale PvE content involving multiple parties and PvP between large numbers of players...

Securing reward rights
Up next is the decision on the right to obtain rewards.
This regards who has the right to obtain experience points, dropped items, and quest completion flags when multiple parties (including solo players) attack the same monster.

This is the only part that concerns me. I am imagining an FFXI Campaign and/or Beseiged type large scale PvE event where multiple parties and soloers are ganging up on Garlean Machina in order to "win" the event. If I gain nothing by helping someone else defeat an enemy, then why should I even try?

If there is no exp and/or loot dropped from each enemy but rather everyone is awarded exp and loot at the end of the battle, then I don't see a problem however, that means that the system does need to track each participants damage and/or healing to determine the proper rewards.

But if I get nothing for helping another player or party, I'm just gonna watch and hope they wipe, then try to steal the claim (esp. if it's an NM).

[Dakotacj]

Can someone help me out? I've read through most of this topic and I can't figure out why people are against the new claiming system besides fears over power leveling(which happens in every MMO). A detailed list of problems would help if someone has the time.

The new system reads solid to me. I mean, we are going from a system where I get nothing for killing stuff because I am killing other stuff, to a system where I get rewarded for killing as many stuffs as I want. Sounds like an upgrade, right?

As far as the power leveling bit, there's already a ton of RMTs out now, and the way I see it, they'll just come out in full force instead of just leveling via leves (which is also how they make their gil atm).

Personally, I don't care about the power leveling. I'm against the system because of how NMs will be now, and honestly, if I'm fighting a mob, I don't want anyone else hitting it unless they're in my party. If I'm fighting something, it's because I like the challenge of fighting it, or I'm testing to see how much SP/EXP I can get off it, or I'm farming it. As far as NMs, anyone that thinks that NMs will be Easy Mode with 40+ people beating on it are out of their bloody minds and have never heard of the concept of TP Feed. Yeah I'll sound a bit harsh with that last statement, but I pay attention to the game's mechanics rather than just beating everything I see. Allowing several parties of people to hit a NM is just asking to MPK the claiming party until they wipe and lose claim.

Frankly, I believe this takes away from the challenge of the game, and the fun. SE games are known for their challenges and I like that, but everyone just wants an Easy Mode. If they really do add this in, and this idea has been thrown around, I demand a /nohelp or /blockaid type command to prevent people outside the party from attacking mobs you claim.

[Physic]

I dont really hate power leveling, other than the fact it will probably make the game very endgame heavy.

I mean with the old plevel system it began to get ineffecient around level 24, meaning a regular group could kill stuff 10 levels higher than you virtually as fast without cutting your sp. but now? i could see pleveling going right up to 40 or even higher.

That aside i basically see virtually no point or advantage to this no claim system, because it is in fact a claim system. First person claims the mob, he gets all the rewards, all the exp all the items and all the credit. It even will still have the claim color for the monsters, and show your monsters with a claim color. The only difference is people can jump in and help you. I see no logical reason to add this feature, it has no mechanics or concepts where it makes sense. It adds nothing to the game. except its easier to plevel.

They say in pve and pvp they need it, but what type of pve design will have you helping people kill things for no exp, quest credit, or drops? what type of pvp? It honestly seems like a half assed slap together thing. Multiple claims had to happen, i was even for an open claiming system, if it had good rewards, or game mechanics built around making it shine, but it seems they have done the opposite. The only thing its going to add to the game, is an easier plevel system, and honestly that really wasnt needed, its already pretty easy to plevel.

[Rhomagus]

I'm completely fine with Naoki Yoshida's update. I'm actually more pleased by the philosophical underpinnings of it to be honest.

Everyone plays games for their own reasons. Some play MMO's to play with their friends. Some play MMO's by themselves and enjoy the economic aspects of gameplay that a persistent world provides. Some play alone on an MMO to see what is possible. Some play with strangers exclusively in hopes of making new friends.

The motivations are as varied as there are unique individuals. With that being said, if someone wants to skip the majority of the story, not learn the intricacies of party play, and skip right to the end I see nothing wrong with this, even in an MMO. Hell, having a buddy strong enough and willing to do that for you shows that you have the minimum amount of social skills to warrant your existence in an MMO as opposed to a single player game. One of the major problems I've noticed so far is that people need to quickly judge others. This is so prevalent that the community demanded class/rank locked gear and their premise was that it wasn't good enough to check them to figure out what they were. Everyone knows that when you search for a party you do it by what they look like not what they're capable of and that alone has greatly added to their individuality by making everyone who plays the same class look exactly the same (sarcasm).

Regardless, level has never been a standard for skill. I've met people who have multiple level 50's and don't know how to do a Battle Regimen. Raptor grinds are not skill oriented but they're the easiest way to get SP. Most accessible RPG's didn't have a system that required skill to move forward but still rewarded players who did. The reward was being having early access to new areas or gloating rights. Sure, you could beat a Midgard Zolom at level 99. Hell, if you wanted to, you could beat it even earlier, but, could you beat the Midgard Zolom with all support characters KO'd without using materia below level 30? Power leveling isn't an issue. It's only an issue when people are doing it for profit, or are monopolizing areas and hopefully they'll have ways to combat that through the Special Task Force Unit.

It's like sprinting through Toto-Rak on Rank 50's. If people get enjoyment out of that, go for it. I for one prefer to experience the intricacies of the content. I like making my own gear from scratch from my own inventory. This requires me to level multiple craft and gathering classes. To some people it's a super chore and is needlessly time consuming. I prefer to know the final product was a creation of my own from start to finish. I relish that on a personal level, and I'm content with it. I also enjoy grouping in smaller parties and fighting "less than efficient" targets for SP. Often times I'll teach an unfamiliar person about battle regimens and once we get a rhythm going, I'll start creating goals like:

Let's see how long we can go without the battle music running out.
Let's see how many targets we can handle at one time.
Let's see what happens if the mage concentrates only on damage and doesn't heal.

... and so on until the restrictions get out of hand. You can't really do this in a pick up raptor grind though. It's not what people are there for in the first place. They're there for SP and SP only, and that's fine. I'll do that sometimes as well but I'll also do other things for fun and I don't need other people to admonish me in order to extract any enjoyment out of doing so.

I'm also not jealous of anyone who has all classes at cap. That's a neat achievement and all but it effectively tells me nothing meaningful about the game mechanics. I'm sure it's of great interest to those who have the same goal, and that's fine in my book. It's fun tweaking the system and capitalizing on advantages when they present themselves by min/maxing and careful stat tracking. It's even better when you pioneer a certain way and share it with the rest of the community. Totally understand that. It's very nice having access to all that content as well. It allows you to be very self sufficient, but it still doesn't say anything about your skill as a player and when I get there, I'll know it was through lot's of grinding but I'll personally be sure to spice things up along the way while having fun with others because that's how I prefer to spend my time.

Others don't.

To most of the people saying that the power leveling ruins the game, the truth is that it just plain doesn't. It only ruins your game by wilting the e-peen. If you're worried about a "tainted" endgame pool of players, it's going to exist regardless, especially as time goes on. You can't just /check someone and know their skill level, you can only determine what they are potentially capable of and that's always been the case.

tl;dr Be satiated by one's own accomplishments, not the digital respect of others.

[Physic]

the simple question, what does this open claim add to the game.

Not multiple claim, as in 1 group being able to claim more than one mob, because that should have been in place from the beginning.

What does being able to attack a claimed mob (because it is claimed, in terms of every possible benifit it could give you) add to the game?

nothing, except maybe an easier plevel.

What does it take away? Well basically overworld NMs and NM mechanics, would have to be built with the claiming system in mind, and all signs point to them doing nothing different about overworld NMs and overworld fighting mechanics to take advantage of the system they propose.
SOOOO essentially all it will do is create problems with NMs, or cause them to make overworld NMs cease to exist.

So overall, the system does more damage than good, and is a waste of development time.

[Commat]

the simple question, what does this open claim add to the game.

Not multiple claim, as in 1 group being able to claim more than one mob, because that should have been in place from the beginning.

What does being able to attack a claimed mob (because it is claimed, in terms of every possible benifit it could give you) add to the game?

nothing, except maybe an easier plevel.

What does it take away? Well basically overworld NMs and NM mechanics, would have to be built with the claiming system in mind, and all signs point to them doing nothing different about overworld NMs and overworld fighting mechanics to take advantage of the system they propose.
SOOOO essentially all it will do is create problems with NMs, or cause them to make overworld NMs cease to exist.

So overall, the system does more damage than good, and is a waste of development time.

I feel like you are reading into things that the dev's have not commented on.

For instance, right now SP is lessened if damage is done to a target before you claim it. Unless I missed some info, there is no reason to think that part of the system will change. Making it impossible for some 50 to run around killing hordes of monsters for an outside group that tags them.

As for NM content, Dako brought that up as well. I do feel that is a problem but I am confident SE will address how they will handle that kind of thing. Why? Idk, just feels to important an issue to leave alone without a different rule set.

[Physic]

I feel like you are reading into things that the dev's have not commented on.

For instance, right now SP is lessened if damage is done to a target before you claim it. Unless I missed some info, there is no reason to think that part of the system will change. Making it impossible for some 50 to run around killing hordes of monsters for an outside group that tags them.

As for NM content, Dako brought that up as well. I do feel that is a problem but I am confident SE will address how they will handle that kind of thing. Why? Idk, just feels to important an issue to leave alone without a different rule set.

in the new claim system the plevel plan will be, let plevelee tap the monster, then pleveler kills it. The pleveler doesnt need to be in the pt to do this. So it wouldnt be a case where its weakened first.

As for NM content, his reply to people worrying about NM content was, dont worry bout overworld NMs, most of the important stuff will be instanced. If this is his answer the implication is that they wont do much about open NMs and the problems this system creates, because he doesnt think it will be a big deal.
It suggest he has no new mechanics or plans built around this claiming system with regards to NMs.