Server Issues and Limitations

[Jynx]

"Server issues" will never be fixed, it's something the developers will be grapling with for years because of how the game was created.

"Server issues" can span a massive plethora of possible issues, not just UI speed. It's not like SE can just flip a switch and everything be solved they have to find a solution, then make sure that solution doesn't screw everything else up in the process. It's not something that can be "Fixed" it's something that can be improved upon.

[Sorel]

Well, you're asking for that now. But the OP isn't asking for it. And to be honest, I can't remember anyone else ever asking for it. So while I would agree with those suggesting that it would be a bad idea for SE to reveal that info, at the very least we can hopefully show some patience and wait for an explanation until after we've asked.

The subject of the "server issues" and "server optimizations" and "server repairs" has been one of the recurring themes of several threads, but there have been only two threads that I could find that directly asks the Development Team about these "server issues". This thread is one, and the other thread is below.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...lly-addressed.

Now granted, both threads are less than a week old. I'll give you that. So I think the call for patience in waiting for a response to these server issue questions is not unfounded.

Nonetheless, question has now been officially asked, the challenge has been formally issued, and the gauntlet is now irrevocably thrown.

Now we wait, and see what the Development Team has to say on this.

[captainpicard]

Perhaps SE folks did the art work, and outsourced the rest of it to a North Korean or Chinese developer. If you have ever worked in project management, with complex vendor relationships, its very easy for the vendor to start dropping the ball, or leave you completely screwed. Perhaps the vendor fulfilled the contractual obligations with SE, and the result was the game we received at launch. Perhaps the vendor deferred or deleted any number of requirements from the project due to failure to deliver, and so what we got was half a product that barely works. Now the SE staff has scrambled to actually try and 1) understand the vendor code 2) begin to try and modify it to improve upon things.

It may sound far fetched, but we are dealing with this very scenario on one of the projects at my employer.

It would explain a lot. If it were true, it explains a whole lot about why the game launched like it did. i.e. - we poured X dollars into the vendor relationship, at minimum lets recoup what we can on boxed sales.

Meanwhile, stubbornly, rather than just kill it, they have endeavored to keep it on life support, with the far fetched hope that it may be profitable one day, IF they can get it into a better place with as few resources as possible. If they had a real solid number of people working on this project, it would be much further along, and thats a fact. I think they are throwing as few resources at it as possible in the hopes that they can push it out again on PS3 (boxed sales - more revenue recoupment) charge a monthly fee to a small audience that is just enough to cover the costs that went into getting it to that state, and cross their fingers that due to HOW BAD IT IS, people will say HOW FAR ITS COME and be blind to the reality that this sucker plays like its 1999.

That said I don't hate the game, but its in a woefully precarious place.

[Delsus]

Perhaps SE folks did the art work, and outsourced the rest of it to a North Korean or Chinese developer. If you have ever worked in project management, with complex vendor relationships, its very easy for the vendor to start dropping the ball, or leave you completely screwed. Perhaps the vendor fulfilled the contractual obligations with SE, and the result was the game we received at launch. Perhaps the vendor deferred or deleted any number of requirements from the project due to failure to deliver, and so what we got was half a product that barely works. Now the SE staff has scrambled to actually try and 1) understand the vendor code 2) begin to try and modify it to improve upon things.

It may sound far fetched, but we are dealing with this very scenario on one of the projects at my employer.

It would explain a lot. If it were true, it explains a whole lot about why the game launched like it did. i.e. - we poured X dollars into the vendor relationship, at minimum lets recoup what we can on boxed sales.

Meanwhile, stubbornly, rather than just kill it, they have endeavored to keep it on life support, with the far fetched hope that it may be profitable one day, IF they can get it into a better place with as few resources as possible. If they had a real solid number of people working on this project, it would be much further along, and thats a fact. I think they are throwing as few resources at it as possible in the hopes that they can push it out again on PS3 (boxed sales - more revenue recoupment) charge a monthly fee to a small audience that is just enough to cover the costs that went into getting it to that state, and cross their fingers that due to HOW BAD IT IS, people will say HOW FAR ITS COME and be blind to the reality that this sucker plays like its 1999.

That said I don't hate the game, but its in a woefully precarious place.

SE would never outsource a MMO that will be constantly updated for its life, which they want to be as long as possible, if they outsource the server builds, the servers are not SE's property and cant touch them, only buy new ones, there are plenty of companies with servers that just arent plugged in because they cant touch them and the vendors did not collect them after relationships broke down, there are also servers that are running and the company doesnt want to switch them off because they could be important.

Also with the software builds outsourcing them is just plain stupid for a games manufacturer, you know people who make games.

It is impossible to speculate what goes on behind the scenes because the possibilities are endless. Yes there are programming problems and network/server problems but these can be hard to find without starting from scratch, and poor programming makes it alot harder, if the programming is really bad it can take a team of 5 people twice as long as one person using good code to do one thing.

The problem is not the amount of staff its the quality of the origanal progamming which makes everyones life harder. If they want to work on the core programming they will need to pull people from other projects to keep pushing content and features out, so they will probably do that a bit later because it is needed.

[VydarrTyr]

The subject of the "server issues" and "server optimizations" and "server repairs" has been one of the recurring themes of several threads, but there have been only two threads that I could find that directly asks the Development Team about these "server issues". This thread is one, and the other thread is below.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...lly-addressed.

Now granted, both threads are less than a week old. I'll give you that. So I think the call for patience in waiting for a response to these server issue questions is not unfounded.

Nonetheless, question has now been officially asked, the challenge has been formally issued, and the gauntlet is now irrevocably thrown.

Now we wait, and see what the Development Team has to say on this.

You're moving the goalposts. You've made abundantly clear that your question is what changes need to occur. The thread you linked asks when server lag is going to be fixed. Those are two different questions.

The question of "when" has been answered. As far as I can tell, the question of "what" has not been asked until today.

Moreover, I suspect it's kind of an unfair question. First, SE can't -- and shouldn't -- reveal its confidential business information.

Second, we're talking about several different issues: server lag, party search feature, linkshell management, limits on the number of items that can be traded, etc. While the cause of all those problems may be related to the servers, I seriously doubt that they're all caused by the same server issue. So they'd all need their own explanations.

Third, answering your question would require SE to figure out how they're going to fix those issues. But they aren't to that stage yet. I'd much rather they focus on fixing problems than diverting manpower to resolve your curiosity about things they're going to fix in the future.

You asked them to treat the server related issues like they've treated the other issues with the game. Well, that's what they're doing. They provide information about the battle related issues when they've arrived at a plan and developed a way to address those issues. We didn't hear much about crafting changes -- other than the fact that they'd be addressed -- until very recently because they're now figuring out what they're going to do.

We should expect the same thing when it comes to server related issues. Let them address the issues they're working on, and then they can give us more details when they begin working on them.

[captainpicard]

SE would never outsource a MMO that will be constantly updated for its life, which they want to be as long as possible, if they outsource the server builds, the servers are not SE's property and cant touch them, only buy new ones, there are plenty of companies with servers that just arent plugged in because they cant touch them and the vendors did not collect them after relationships broke down, there are also servers that are running and the company doesnt want to switch them off because they could be important.

Also with the software builds outsourcing them is just plain stupid for a games manufacturer, you know people who make games.

It is impossible to speculate what goes on behind the scenes because the possibilities are endless. Yes there are programming problems and network/server problems but these can be hard to find without starting from scratch, and poor programming makes it alot harder, if the programming is really bad it can take a team of 5 people twice as long as one person using good code to do one thing.

The problem is not the amount of staff its the quality of the origanal progamming which makes everyones life harder. If they want to work on the core programming they will need to pull people from other projects to keep pushing content and features out, so they will probably do that a bit later because it is needed.

I think you make a lot of valid points here and it fairly kills my idea that they outsourced the code.

I just can't get past the actual changes they have made in the game. When I look at whats really been changed, it seems like very small pieces of code. Lets evaluate a few examples with the understanding that in my opinion, these are not major coding feats that should take the kind of time we are talking about:

1. Adding NM to the various zones = add a mob with a hidden level that drops a new item and has a unique name
2. Change skill point calculation from random to predictable = delete randomizer, tie player level to mob level, create base sp modifer, add group bonus
3. Simplify recipes = add new simple recipes with same outcome as more complex recipes, delete complex reciples from db later
4. Make hotbar not disappear = "hotbar.disappear = false;"
5. Change hotbar graphics = draw new icons, replace old icons with new ones
6. Speed up (if you call it that) retainer interactions = delete line of code that was requesting server confirmation every time the user moused over an item
7. Events = cut and paste, new skins, new text
8. Delete Stamina Bar = /* comment stamina bar code */ add timers to each skill

You see where I am going with this. The change we have seen over the past year since release, when evaluated honestly, is not at least from the outsider looking in standpoint, major code changes. If this was your C# program, then you know how easy these things would be to accomplish in very little time.

The fact that simple things like kick user from linkshell, or mounts, or airships, and so forth have not been added as of the date of this posting tells me either

1. There is next to no staff working on this project
2. The staff working on this project doesn't understand the code
3. The staff working on this project are very, very bad coders
4. All of the above

Take your pick. I mean really there is no explainable reason for the lack of overall sweeping change. That is what led me to speculate on this games development having been partly outsourced.

When you look at the quality of some of SE's none MMO titles, it looks as if a completely different company developed them.

I also seem to recall an announcement around the time of launch that there would be Chinese servers and the game would be served up by a Chinese company, and modified to suit that audience appropriately, which also makes me wonder if said company didn't actually author the game itself or have a hand in some of the code we see in effect today.

We have gotten incremental change. You typically give incremental change when you don't want to inadvertently take down critical systems. Baby steps. They have already stated that player retention is not a goal at this time, and they are not charging for the game, so this is the time to make those changes that could take down the system. What do they have to lose?

I am just stumped.

[Delsus]

I think you make a lot of valid points here and it fairly kills my idea that they outsourced the code.

I just can't get past the actual changes they have made in the game. When I look at whats really been changed, it seems like very small pieces of code. Lets evaluate a few examples with the understanding that in my opinion, these are not major coding feats that should take the kind of time we are talking about:

1. Adding NM to the various zones = add a mob with a hidden level that drops a new item and has a unique name
2. Change skill point calculation from random to predictable = delete randomizer, tie player level to mob level, create base sp modifer, add group bonus
3. Simplify recipes = add new simple recipes with same outcome as more complex recipes, delete complex reciples from db later
4. Make hotbar not disappear = "hotbar.disappear = false;"
5. Change hotbar graphics = draw new icons, replace old icons with new ones
6. Speed up (if you call it that) retainer interactions = delete line of code that was requesting server confirmation every time the user moused over an item
7. Events = cut and paste, new skins, new text
8. Delete Stamina Bar = /* comment stamina bar code */ add timers to each skill

You see where I am going with this. The change we have seen over the past year since release, when evaluated honestly, is not at least from the outsider looking in standpoint, major code changes. If this was your C# program, then you know how easy these things would be to accomplish in very little time.

The fact that simple things like kick user from linkshell, or mounts, or airships, and so forth have not been added as of the date of this posting tells me either

1. There is next to no staff working on this project
2. The staff working on this project doesn't understand the code
3. The staff working on this project are very, very bad coders
4. All of the above

Take your pick. I mean really there is no explainable reason for the lack of overall sweeping change. That is what led me to speculate on this games development having been partly outsourced.

When you look at the quality of some of SE's none MMO titles, it looks as if a completely different company developed them.

I also seem to recall an announcement around the time of launch that there would be Chinese servers and the game would be served up by a Chinese company, and modified to suit that audience appropriately, which also makes me wonder if said company didn't actually author the game itself or have a hand in some of the code we see in effect today.

We have gotten incremental change. You typically give incremental change when you don't want to inadvertently take down critical systems. Baby steps. They have already stated that player retention is not a goal at this time, and they are not charging for the game, so this is the time to make those changes that could take down the system. What do they have to lose?

I am just stumped.

They were doing those small things because people wanted content, and this was the fastest way to give it to us, and for NMs the only thing that is the same as other mobs of the same type is the look, everything else is differant, darkhold and totorak are not copy and paste they are completly new areas, you make it all sound like you could do it in a day, but if you are a programmer you will know about changes having unforseen problems later on like the recent ffxi cure bug.

For people that dont know that was when cures would do 99,999 to any undead mob regardless of resistance when cure was not touched in the update, this is why they spend a long time testing updates to ensure as few of these game breaking bugs go into the game.

You also failed to mention the animation changes for auto attack, which meant taking a trip to the motion capture room.

All the changes take time because they need to plan, code, test, recode, test etc before they go into the game.

[Zangetsu]

I have found that the faster your PC is, the faster items move.

Its odd, but the day I upgraded my PC, items moved in half the time from my inventory to the trade window and to retainers.

Yup, I also upgraded PC and trading items got faster. If I'm in a zone with few people my trading is instant. There is still room for improvement though. And with action lag. If your experiencing long delay between when you press it and when it starts try lowering graphic settings a bit. 1 second is normal, 3 seconds is not.

[Sorel]

You're moving the goalposts. You've made abundantly clear that your question is what changes need to occur. The thread you linked asks when server lag is going to be fixed. Those are two different questions.

The question of "when" has been answered. As far as I can tell, the question of "what" has not been asked until today.

On this point you are correct. I concede to that. It is unfair to for me to ask a question and not wait for it's answer. But I still believe we should get a meaningful answer once the Development Team addresses the question.

Moreover, I suspect it's kind of an unfair question. First, SE can't -- and shouldn't -- reveal its confidential business information.

Second, we're talking about several different issues: server lag, party search feature, linkshell management, limits on the number of items that can be traded, etc. While the cause of all those problems may be related to the servers, I seriously doubt that they're all caused by the same server issue. So they'd all need their own explanations.

Third, answering your question would require SE to figure out how they're going to fix those issues. But they aren't to that stage yet. I'd much rather they focus on fixing problems than diverting manpower to resolve your curiosity about things they're going to fix in the future.

You asked them to treat the server related issues like they've treated the other issues with the game. Well, that's what they're doing. They provide information about the battle related issues when they've arrived at a plan and developed a way to address those issues. We didn't hear much about crafting changes -- other than the fact that they'd be addressed -- until very recently because they're now figuring out what they're going to do.

We should expect the same thing when it comes to server related issues. Let them address the issues they're working on, and then they can give us more details when they begin working on them.

Well first, I don't believe that admitting that having "networking problems", or having "database problems", or having "processor problems", or having "hard drive problems" is revealing any more confidential information than "server issues".

Second, while these "server issues" seem to affect the implementation of multiple core features like you said ... because SE keeps using the same phrase "server issues" they themselves are representing that this one thing is the root of all the trouble. This may be a misrepresentation, but we can't know that because the phrase "server issues" is too imprecise. All I'm asking for is one additional descriptive word to be added to the phrase ... the "what".

Third, the Development Team has managed to come up with tentative plans to fix other game issues months before they were ready to implement them. Naoki Yoshida mentioned this new claiming system 6 months ago in one of his Letters. And the point of all these letters and dev posts isn't to just "satisfy curiosity" ... it's to keep us informed of what is going on with the ongoing improvements to FFXIV. If answering this question about "server issues" is an unnecessary diversion of manpower, then every question on these forums is an unnecessary diversion of manpower ... no??

And maybe they are dealing with "server issues" like every other issue with the game, but they are certainly not communicating about it like every other issue in the game, so we don't know what their dealing with, or how they are dealing with it.

And if they're not communicating because they don't have a plan on how they are going to address these "server issues" ... isn't that bad ... like really bad??

[Raze]

I would like an open-source copy of Final Fantasy XIV so that I may play with it (between those engrossing leves of course).