The relic weapon quest is OBSCENELY boring...

[BreathlessTao]

Did you cheer when you finally got that one Atma? I'm willing to bet you did.

Oh, !@#$% no. I was either smashing my mouse/keyboard so hard they almost broke, or I was so burnt-out I just barely even noticed I can go to another zone.
You mention the keyword yourself: progression. To be more precise - the sense of progression. With Atma, there is none; granted, it's much better now than it was pre-nerf, but the fact still is that you have no idea whether you need to do 100 FATEs for the next one to drop, or just 2, because it's basically simple lottery. The books aren't any more fun either, that's true, but at least you do know where you are with that progression.

[Welsper59]

Oh, !@#$% no. I was either smashing my mouse/keyboard so hard they almost broke, or I was so burnt-out I just barely even noticed I can go to another zone.
You mention the keyword yourself: progression. To be more precise - the sense of progression. With Atma, there is none; granted, it's much better now than it was pre-nerf, but the fact still is that you have no idea whether you need to do 100 FATEs for the next one to drop, or just 2, because it's basically simple lottery. The books aren't any more fun either, that's true, but at least you do know where you are with that progression.

Again though, that was targeted at the concept of the old school grind. The feeling of progression being a huge part of the reward with this model. In this case, perhaps it's that sense of relief that you're one step closer to being done with something you have no idea how long will take to complete. It's somewhat along the same feeling in Coil that people get when, for example, a drop happens that YOU can use and want. Isn't there that sense of relief that not only did you get it, but you have thus "beat" the system by avoiding the unforeseen amount of time it would have otherwise took? That's the old school reward system, which is actually why MMORPGs were so dear to people in the past. It gave you all of these senses and emotions lol. You legitimately celebrate when you beat the odds... usually. Animus does not do this for most people, simply because you can track it (the primary difference between the two).

I agree about being able to track your progress effectively being a lot more friendly (to the extent that you can more or less predict when you'll finish). That's the newer model of MMORPGs. For today's generation, that's kind of what people expect. If it isn't along the lines of how Atma is now, it's too much of a grind. When Atma/Animus first came about, the drop rate was "fine". Alternatives existed (Zenith, followed by Levi EX weapons, was good enough for progression sake) and matched the content difficulty to acquire them. Many people were turned off by the low chance to get Atma, which resulted in a lot of burn out, but that's not exactly the fault of the developers. That is, assuming players don't expect them to baby the player base and be concerned that players will play way too much when they design content... no developer should have to worry about that, unless again, we aim to be babied and think of SE as our parents, always watching out for the poor choices we make. To those of us that lived through the old school grind over a decade ago, we kinda laugh at the fact people still can't control themselves (since that existed back then too).

SE's decision to finally up the Atma drop rate is an example of the proper design philosophy that I was talking about. When there is so much content available, along with very easy to obtain alternatives, the old school grind DOES NOT WORK. Their decision to bring it back again however, with the latter Zodiac stages, just showcases another example of their inability to properly implement it. That's speaking from the outside though. I do not know what limitations they have, what restrictions are in place, exactly how much of a percentage of players are doing old content for relic, etc. But even of those hindrances are legit reasons, it doesn't change the fact that the Relic quest, as a whole, is widely seen as extremely lackluster for what you get out of it (digitally and personally).

[RichardButte]

Again though, that was targeted at the concept of the old school grind.

And I think we all get that, but there are infinitely better ways to add old school grinds to an MMO that don't involve gearing progress even one bit.

WoW has some of the most ridiculously long grinds in it (The "Insane" title, for starters), but none of them will affect your gearscore even one bit.

And like I said, WoW's version of this quest took you the entire expansion to complete and did so without being a boring, simplistic grindfest like this is...

[Kiara]

Again though, that was targeted at the concept of the old school grind. The feeling of progression being a huge part of the reward with this model... Isn't there that sense of relief that not only did you get it, but you have thus "beat" the system by avoiding the unforeseen amount of time it would have otherwise took? That's the old school reward system, which is actually why MMORPGs were so dear to people in the past. It gave you all of these senses and emotions lol. You legitimately celebrate when you beat the odds... usually. Animus does not do this for most people, simply because you can track it (the primary difference between the two).

I agree about being able to track your progress effectively being a lot more friendly (to the extent that you can more or less predict when you'll finish). That's the newer model of MMORPGs. For today's generation, that's kind of what people expect.

Hi Welsper,

Some great thoughts about the differing systems. I would say one factor to add into the discussion about the "Old School Grind" vs. tracking progress is:

* Vertical Progression with Fast Item Level Changes undermine the Grind.

I don't mind the Old School Grind (like finally getting your drop from Nidhogg, or FF XI's Relic Grind (early years) (OK, the currency grind was TOO long, but the general steps were OK)), but it doesn't work with Yoshi P's current Vertical Progression Pace.

I did enjoy the sense of accomplishment and relief when you finally earned a drop off a Rare NM and you knew that item was going to be BiS for a long time.

But with Item Level inflation the way it is in FF XIV, it makes EVERYTHING you earn feel like "disposable gear" / worthless every ~5 - 6 months.

Note for those that have only played with these newer WoW-inspired methods: With Horizontal Progression you *can* have plenty of New Gear as well. Sure there might be some that are truly "the best in slot," but with proper balancing the other gear (same Item Level, but with different unique stats) would still be meaningful and useful to get (while you try and get the most desired version).

[Sessurea]

Meh there's coil for fun/challenge though? I've grown accustomed to these regular gruelling tests of masochism now. That extreme dread knowing theres a new relic quest just around the corner, me telling my friend everyday " it wont be that bad will it?" to which he responds " nope it will be terrible" xD

An up to date relic is a great thing to have. Safe-guards against slow progress and bad rng in coil too. IMO yes it's worth it, will I say this next Tuesday? probably not xD

[Izsha]

There is a breed of people that like solo oriented, laid back grinds. For the love of cake don't bind relics to 24 man troll fests. CT is so full of trolls and derp I never touch it unless I have too. Why would I want to spam a nightmarish 24 man derp fest when I can unwind after a stressful day and just veg out and grind some easy stuff. There are entire games built on concepts line these relic trials and they have tons of players too. We are out there. Not everything needs to be some epic skill check raid or test in troll survival. There is a place for rudimentary simple mindless grinds. Some people do enjoy fishing. Some do enjoy spamming fates. Some do like repetitive simple combat class grinds. Just because you don't doesn't make it wrong. Look at anyone with multiple relics and you found someone. There's a lot of us around.

If you want a weapon from 24 man raids go get your 110s, or soon 130 when they add it to WoD. If you want a skill check weapon go get your coil on. If you want a lighter skill check go do shiva. If you want laid back grind get you relic. Why turn relic into the same type of progression that already exists. You have 24 man raid spam weapons, high skill check and lower skill check weapons. Leave the only laid back grind for those that want it.

[RichardButte]

CT is so full of trolls and derp I never touch it unless I have too. Why would I want to spam a nightmarish 24 man derp fest when I can unwind after a stressful day and just veg out and grind some easy stuff.

I'm sorry, but you're thinking of hunts, not raids.

I've run so many 24 man raids that I've earned over half of my weekly poetics doing them and I can safely say that you're either the unluckiest person ever when it comes to queuing or you're exaggerating like crazy.

And you want leisurely grinds? Go fishing. There's no reason for the relic weapon quest to be as boring AND devoid of storyline as it is. You don't seem to understand the fact that something can be both time-consuming AND fun, and not "masochist who enjoys boredom fun" but REAL fun.

I'm surprised there are no pet grinds in FFXIV: many of the mobs in WoW have a .01% chance of dropping a pet, the DEFINITION of boring grind, but it's there for people like you.

[XgungraveX]

I'm sorry, but you're thinking of hunts, not raids.

I've run so many 24 man raids that I've earned over half of my weekly poetics doing them and I can safely say that you're either the unluckiest person ever when it comes to queuing or you're exaggerating like crazy.

And you want leisurely grinds? Go fishing. There's no reason for the relic weapon quest to be as boring AND devoid of storyline as it is. You don't seem to understand the fact that something can be both time-consuming AND fun, and not "masochist who enjoys boredom fun" but REAL fun.

I'm surprised there are no pet grinds in FFXIV: many of the mobs in WoW have a .01% chance of dropping a pet, the DEFINITION of boring grind, but it's there for people like you.

sadly there not, i get it all the time,im glad i dont have to run them anymore.

[Izsha]

I'm sorry, but you're thinking of hunts, not raids.

I've run so many 24 man raids that I've earned over half of my weekly poetics doing them and I can safely say that you're either the unluckiest person ever when it comes to queuing or you're exaggerating like crazy.

And you want leisurely grinds? Go fishing. There's no reason for the relic weapon quest to be as boring AND devoid of storyline as it is. You don't seem to understand the fact that something can be both time-consuming AND fun, and not "masochist who enjoys boredom fun" but REAL fun.

I'm surprised there are no pet grinds in FFXIV: many of the mobs in WoW have a .01% chance of dropping a pet, the DEFINITION of boring grind, but it's there for people like you.

Whoosh. My point is, instead of REMOVING the relic quest that people like myself like. ADD a new one that fits your like. Relics are the ONLY combat class content in the entire game that is a laid back, time consuming grind. Don't take away, add. Ffxi had a very good system for their epic class weapons because they had 3 types of similar calibur. 1, relics, was 99% based on your bank account buying bazillion of ancient currency. 1, empyreams, was through fighting through a million popped notorious monsters where you fought lower tier monsters to get pops for harder ones which dropped pops for harder ones to fight a super monster that dropped 1 item and you needed a great many of those items to make the weapon. The 3rd, mythics, was a huge smorgasbord of events in varying difficulty and a vast collection of alexandrite which you could buy or obtain from a challenging 6man event.

We dont need to delete the current style relic. As tiggy mentioned, there's nothing wrong with the current content, there just needs to be additional content. Just because you may not like it, doesn't mean it should be deleted or your just trading your grievance to someone else.

[RichardButte]

My point is, instead of REMOVING the relic quest that people like myself like. ADD a new one that fits your like.

Agreed.

I hope they do a fresh quest in 3.0 that has an interesting, involved storyline and objectives that engage instead of copping out with things like sending you slogging through old content.