Why Speed Pulls?

[Sousoulsu]

although I kinda agree with you here I don't think either tank role is really newb friendly at 50... before that your learning the ropes so who cares. post that you better know how to handle yourself and know the instances because otherwise dps and heals are going to be pulling from you constantly.

war's have to know there skills to be able to fully mitigate properly however even they have insta cd's that help out just as much as pld has them.

I don't play war much past getting it to 50 but I know I can pick it up and play it in dungeons and hold the hate ok but not as well as I can on pld since ive used that since day one. the biggest reason I know this is because I know the instances and skills on pld where as im not solid on skill knowledge and how they work on war but once there learned its no harder to play war

I think you overstate the complexity of tanking by a fair amount.

Both PLDs and WARs should not have a problem maintaining aggro. Flash/Overpower 3x and you're guarenteed to have aggro unless the DPS vastly outgear you.

The difficulty in WAR comes in appropriately keeping Maim/Storm's up, not overspending your TP, and using your Infuriate on the right moves in preparation for incoming damage.
PLD is very much passive in its mitigation, and only has 1 combo, and no buffs to maintain. Reactively using Shield Swipe does not really account for much skill, unless it's used on a mob at the right time to stop a weaponskill or something. Using Cover is pretty much a "Use on the WHM or BLM" thing, too.

PLD and WAR both have differing skillsets, but WAR is more complicated to play than PLD in measurable ways.

[Galgarion]

Both PLDs and WARs should not have a problem maintaining aggro. Flash/Overpower 3x and you're guaranteed to have aggro unless the DPS vastly outgear you.

That's actually a pretty big caveat. Unless a fresh 50 tank can no-life his way to a soldierly set in a week, he's guaranteed a month or so of not having any fun at all.

[Spoekes]

That's actually a pretty big caveat. Unless a fresh 50 tank can no-life his way to a soldierly set in a week, he's guaranteed a month or so of not having any fun at all.

Maybe or not.
Either way he will have this problem with any pull size.
On the topic of pull size, one might argue that smaller pulls favor focus damage, which might not make it easier for the tank than AoE Aggro.

[BrielleBeaudonet]

Not much I can add that hasn't been said already, but here's the bottom line: You have every right to tank dungeons the way you want. However, you implicitly acknowledge and accept that your way of running the dungeon might be disliked by the majority of high-level players. If you're fine with that, or can justify the slow pace in other ways, more power to you.

I enjoy speed-pulling when the party composition allows for it because it injects challenge into the dungeons and makes you feel really powerful. What have we been leveling and gearing up for, if not the thrill of decimating 10 or more mobs at once? It's a rare chance to use brute force and gear to bend the rules, which fits right in with JRPG tradition.

But I've also made a habit of doing a party/dungeon check before we start and deciding how to tank based on that. With two MNKs at ~4000 HP and an undergeared SCH? Even in Brayflox or Halatali, I'm not pulling more than one or two groups at a time. Amdapor Keep with a high-geared WHM and 2 BLMs? Glorious. Part of being a tank, to me, is having the wherewithal and leadership to make good decisions on behalf of the party, balancing what the party wants with what it's capable of.

[Malevicton]

That's actually a pretty big caveat. Unless a fresh 50 tank can no-life his way to a soldierly set in a week, he's guaranteed a month or so of not having any fun at all.

Not really that big of a caveat. Only the weapon will affect enmity, so they just need 1 lucky ST run for a tome/sand and it's all good; whether the rest of the set is full weathered, full AF, or full dreadwyrm is entirely irrelevant for enmity purposes. Hardly takes a month of no life-ing to run ST. Flash doesn't scale with the weapon anyways, so overgearing is more of a problem for single-target. But for single target you get crazy enmity modifiers, so that's not a problem either unless he's trying to hold hate from an i130 MNK. So it's not really a problem unless the tank just isn't playing their class properly, in which case gear wouldn't help much.

[chidarake]

I think you overstate the complexity of tanking by a fair amount.

Both PLDs and WARs should not have a problem maintaining aggro. Flash/Overpower 3x and you're guarenteed to have aggro unless the DPS vastly outgear you.

The difficulty in WAR comes in appropriately keeping Maim/Storm's up, not overspending your TP, and using your Infuriate on the right moves in preparation for incoming damage.
PLD is very much passive in its mitigation, and only has 1 combo, and no buffs to maintain. Reactively using Shield Swipe does not really account for much skill, unless it's used on a mob at the right time to stop a weaponskill or something. Using Cover is pretty much a "Use on the WHM or BLM" thing, too.

PLD and WAR both have differing skillsets, but WAR is more complicated to play than PLD in measurable ways.

I'm not over-stating anything.

at 50 you have all your skills and so yes you can hold agro against any class in the game, but a fresh 50 will in all likelihood lack the experience to effectively tank some of the content with people who have been running and know that content really well.

the knowledge a good tank needs is knowing that content and knowing their class and a fresh 50 doesn't know all that information yet. not saying they cant learn it quickly or even after there first run in a dungeon or instance but in all likelihood they will have some problems for awhile.

I doubt 3x flash or overpower would hold of a triple flare... or even holy spam without further enmity built up by the tank, actually I know it wont as ive pulled from many tanks with a triple flare buffed and un-buffed.

also as for pld having no dots, that is not true. for one pld's can use fracture from cross class, then there's the str down debuff from rage of halone and then there's circle of scorn, admittedly the only one you have to manage is fracture since the others take care of themselves for the most part.


in all tanking one mob at a time and going slowly will make tanking seem simple but when you start to help push the grp through content quickly not only to save time but for the fun of it then you'll find tanking isn't as simple as it seems. not that i'm saying is really hard or anything but it isn't quite as simple as your statement suggest.

Not really that big of a caveat. Only the weapon will affect enmity, so they just need 1 lucky ST run for a tome/sand and it's all good; whether the rest of the set is full weathered, full AF, or full dreadwyrm is entirely irrelevant for enmity purposes. Hardly takes a month of no life-ing to run ST. Flash doesn't scale with the weapon anyways, so overgearing is more of a problem for single-target. But for single target you get crazy enmity modifiers, so that's not a problem either unless he's trying to hold hate from an i130 MNK. So it's not really a problem unless the tank just isn't playing their class properly, in which case gear wouldn't help much.

although the weapon may be the biggest factor you can not ignore all the extra str from going from full af to 120-130 gear. that generates a fair bit of extra hate surely, not that ive looked into numbers

[elemental10]

Well, I won't be saying much because much of what's been said are true.

You're the tank, you decide what speed the run is. But at the same time, you also have a responsibility to decide what's best for the team.

I mean, I've been speed running everywhere since I got my Ragnarok but when you have a fresh 50 in AK with a healer that doesn't know how to use his buffs, I won't pull the entire level down on me. But if I want, I can. But does that make a fun experience for the healer? No, it doesn't.

Size of the pull depends on the tank. The duration of the pull depends on the healer.

If the healer can't heal you over the damage you're getting, you'll wipe. If you can't handle that much damage, you'll wipe. So balance it out.

[aerialrave]

90% of players in a hurry? Yes.
Why? Because we've cleared this content 100 times already and we don't want to do it again. We're doing it because we have to.
Why should you comply? Because it's in everybody's interest to finish the run as soon as possible and get it over with.

It's kind of hard to draw the line between an impatient player versus an unnecessarily slow tank.

[Sousoulsu]

I'm not over-stating anything.

at 50 you have all your skills and so yes you can hold agro against any class in the game, but a fresh 50 will in all likelihood lack the experience to effectively tank some of the content with people who have been running and know that content really well.

the knowledge a good tank needs is knowing that content and knowing their class and a fresh 50 doesn't know all that information yet. not saying they cant learn it quickly or even after there first run in a dungeon or instance but in all likelihood they will have some problems for awhile.

I doubt 3x flash or overpower would hold of a triple flare... or even holy spam without further enmity built up by the tank, actually I know it wont as ive pulled from many tanks with a triple flare buffed and un-buffed.

also as for pld having no dots, that is not true. for one pld's can use fracture from cross class, then there's the str down debuff from rage of halone and then there's circle of scorn, admittedly the only one you have to manage is fracture since the others take care of themselves for the most part.


in all tanking one mob at a time and going slowly will make tanking seem simple but when you start to help push the grp through content quickly not only to save time but for the fun of it then you'll find tanking isn't as simple as it seems. not that i'm saying is really hard or anything but it isn't quite as simple as your statement suggest.



although the weapon may be the biggest factor you can not ignore all the extra str from going from full af to 120-130 gear. that generates a fair bit of extra hate surely, not that ive looked into numbers

A lot of bluster.
PLD should not be using Fracture. It is not worth the GCD and TP cost.
Rage of Halone isn't something that is managed. It is something that is incidental.
CoS is not counted as "upkeep".

Speedrunning or single-pulling is irrelevent to PLD or WAR being more complex. WAR is factually more complex due to needing to use active mitigation outside of long CDs.

Tanking is (of course arguably) the easiest roll in the game to perform acceptably.
3x Flash/Overpower gets initial enmity. Of course do more as needed. You take what I said far too literally.
A new tank will probably spam those until theyre out of resource. That works for dungeons.

What i was saying was that WAR is more complex than PLD. That is an inarguable fact.

[Iagainsti]

For clarification, Fracture does not generate Enmity, and while ppl differ in playstyle, I wouldn't use Fracture while tanking, but when I dps, sure thing!

To add to this whole "Fresh 50" tanking mumbo jumbo, if dps and heals gave said tank a 5 sec headstart before going balls deep, he'd have his BB or RoH combo in, or for mob pack, 3 flashes or 3 overpowers, either way, Aggro table would be set and unless the tank gets stunned, not even a 130 wep dps is pulling off him/her. For even more clarification, there is this little bar beside your name that fills up, if its up there with the tank, slow your sh*t down or your about to get 1 shot. #EZPZ