Why Speed Pulls?

[Kaiser-Ace]

Because playing PLD in this game is such a mentally challenging task. At least you have to manage defensives somewhat in bigger pulls rather than mindlessly mashing your 123 combo.

As far as tanking goes, imo I think WAR is harder that PLD because they burn through their TP so fast. I found it almost impossible to play as MAR/WAR with out cross classing flash from GLD/PLD and Invigorate from LNC/DRG.

[Galgarion]

As far as tanking goes, imo I think WAR is harder that PLD because they burn through their TP so fast. I found it almost impossible to play as MAR/WAR with out cross classing flash from GLD/PLD and Invigorate from LNC/DRG.

Warrior's and pally's have around the same level of difficulty once you spend enough time on both. I never really understood the argument that warriors somehow had more depth just because they have a couple more combos. They're both simple classes to play, and anyone arguing against that probably drives a pickup truck with bronze testicles hanging off the back.

[Brill_]

After 35 runs of snowcloak, I noticed speed pulls don't make much of a difference. I was in groups that did big pulls and groups that did smaller pulls. The difference in each section was about 1 minute. The real time sink was bosses. Groups with lower geared dps took longer to kill the bosses.

[Sousoulsu]

After 35 runs of snowcloak, I noticed speed pulls don't make much of a difference. I was in groups that did big pulls and groups that did smaller pulls. The difference in each section was about 1 minute. The real time sink was bosses. Groups with lower geared dps took longer to kill the bosses.

While the difference may be skewed by different gear levels / damage output in the groups you're comparing, it's definetely true that some dungeons yield higher time gains than others when doing large pulls.
The large pulls in Snowcloak (First pack to Bear Gate before bombs of first boss; Goobue ice sprite and Ogre pull before second boss) do shave a large amount of time off though.

[KisaiTenshi]

I've been going through each hard dungeon one by one just to clear them from the journal log.

In every dungeon, every tank does try to speed pull, though some ask first.

My suggestion is that if you are appropriately geared or overgeared, A WHM or SCH should be able to keep up with a tank provided that:
a) The tank has all the enmity and keeps it.
b) The DPS are not Melee type. And the both the Tank and the DPS avoid AOE's

If the tank kinda sucks, then they shouldn't be trying any kind of mass pull. If the DPS are under-geared or can't get out of the way of the AOE, then they won't kill the mobs fast enough for the healer to save the Tank from being killed.

The most efficient use of MP for a WHM is to use only Cure I until a freecure pops then use Cure II, but masspulls inevitably require spamming Cure II on top of Regen which burns MP faster and causes Enmity to raise quickly.If the WHM has to do the full Devine Seal+Presence of mind+Magica II before Regen and Cure's, then the tank is pulling too much and will have trouble keeping enmity.

So parties really have two options for speed pulling:
a) Healer Race - Where the Tank has to hold enmity while the healer spams healing spells. A wipe will happen if the Tank dies or loses enmity.
b) DPS Race - Where everyone uses AOE's including the healer to prevent the mobs from moving or doing damage.

If you have Melee DPS, then you're better off not speed pulling, as the healer will not have time to heal them. From experience, as a healer, the largest pull possible is determined by how large the mobs combined AOE is. If they only have linear AOE's then you can still do a large pull. If they are center-AOE's then Melee DPS will not be able to deal with multiple AOE circles without taking damage and still dealing damage.

[Almalexia]

If you have Melee DPS, then you're better off not speed pulling, as the healer will not have time to heal them. From experience, as a healer, the largest pull possible is determined by how large the mobs combined AOE is. If they only have linear AOE's then you can still do a large pull. If they are center-AOE's then Melee DPS will not be able to deal with multiple AOE circles without taking damage and still dealing damage.

Second Wind, Bloodbath, Featherfoot, Keen Flurry, Perfect Dodge, Life Surge, Mug.

Got hit once? Second Wind. Didn't fill you up? Supplement with HP drain. More AoE coming? Feather/Keen/PD. Healer should be patching them up with Regen/Medica II/Succor long before they're HP critical if melee apply abilities that give healers the buffer they need.

Melee DPS aren't the fragile vases you make them out to be. They can take a hit in a dungeon. They should take a hit if it means more DPS; all they should look out for are AoEs that inflict debilitating statuses like para/bind/slow. The time between pulls and bosses is enough to recover the 3-4k HP lost in the last encounter.

To this day, melee in i110 still run away from AoE in Amdapor Keep--a dungeon from 2013. They are programmed into a binary mentality of HP FULL or HP NOT FULL when DPS is no less at 70% HP than 100%. It's ludicrious, and it perpetuates these stereotypes that melee "can't AoE" or need to be coddled with excessive cures.

[KisaiTenshi]

Melee DPS aren't the fragile vases you make them out to be. They can take a hit in a dungeon. They should take a hit if it means more DPS; all they should look out for are AoEs that inflict debilitating statuses like para/bind/slow. The time between pulls and bosses is enough to recover the 3-4k HP lost in the last encounter.

If the speedpull generates a dozen overlapping AOE's, the melee is going to get killed instantly if they don't move. Even the tanks tend to suck at this where they will lose 80% of their HP in less time than it takes to cast any healing magic.

[KikoriL]

If the speedpull generates a dozen overlapping AOE's, the melee is going to get killed instantly if they don't move. Even the tanks tend to suck at this where they will lose 80% of their HP in less time than it takes to cast any healing magic.

What speedruns have you been attempting that you'll preach bad logic across the forum?

[KisaiTenshi]

What speedruns have you been attempting that you'll preach bad logic across the forum?

PUG DF's, range from tanks that take off without waiting for protect, to tanks that pull every mob to the door of the every boss room. So far those are the exceptions not the rule. The more sane tanks know how many mobs they can pull before getting killed. Do I have 10 seconds before the tank dies or 3? Does the tank run so far ahead of the party that they are taking damage they didn't have to?

I'd love to believe that every player knows their role with their class/job inside and out, but experience suggests that people are in too much of a rush and just want to faceroll through the dungeon as quick as possible with the least effort.

[ThirdChild_ZKI]

So long as we (the community as a whole) treat speed runs as a mandatory requirement and not as an option, (a popular option), we will continue to foster and at best, sloppily patch up player inability in dungeons as a whole.

To be fair, it's no one's job to teach another how to play their role right or even how to speed run, but it'd be hard to disagree that speed and learning don't usually go hand in hand, especially in dungeons.