Why Speed Pulls?

[Zedd702]

1)Speed running requires the tank to know when to pop which CDs, when to save bigger ones for certain pulls, and shield swiping properly makes some huge pulls possible. Probably not much so anymore with gear, but it's still a skill-dependent trait.

SR don't really require the use of CD's... I've done SR's with both my 110 WAR & PLD without really using cooldowns at all except on some boss fights or if I herpderp miss an AoE telegraph.

It just seems like you're grasping at straws in order to sidestep admitting that speedruns take more individual skill than single pulls. Which is silly, because if I ask any random person not involved in this discussion, they would agree.

Nope, not grasping straws or sidestepping anything. I'm a realist that sees it for what it is and I don't call a player bad because they don't agree with speedrunning, nor do I force it upon anyone...

I appologize for mixing you up as someone who does not like speedrunning. It seems we disagree on which is more skill-intensive; not on if speedrunning should be done or not. ^^

I've said it once, wait twice, wait three times... Hell I lost count. Anyway I will say it again. SR is governed by gear and is a matter of preference. The ONLY time I'd say it's considered skillful is if the tank that does the SR is at minimal req lvl and applies his/her mind to it and succeeds at doing it as if he/she were overgeared for the specific dungeon.

You cannot attempt a speedrun unless you have gear.

Thank you for proving my point.

[Kaiser-Ace]

Which of these two requires a more skilled group than the other?
-Doing single-pulls, or
-Doing multiple pulls

My opinion on this is that the greater skill is shown from knowing when to do either.

If you have a SCH, a DRG and a MNK it's probably not a good idea to pull full floors how ever if you have a White Mage, a Black Mage, and a Bard it's almost a waste of potential to pull lest than at least half the floor per pull since they're potential is wasted on single targets.

It also shows good judgment for the Tank to consider the capabilities of the healer and DPS through an examination of gear and seeing if they feel that their skill is up to SRing.

No one should be forced to do either but efficiency always achieves faster runs than failures cause by stubbornness and clashing Egos. And no matter what the player's preference efficiency is one thing every one should be looking for. Just SRing isn't ALWAYS the most efficient method but again the real skill is shown by being able to pick the most efficient method and A DPS/Healer should have already recognized the same just by the party make up. If any one has an objection to a "Normal Run" for that team setup then it should be discussed before pulling which, at most, would only add about 10s to the run. (30s with Consol/slow PC typers)

[Sousoulsu]

My opinion on this is that the greater skill is shown from knowing when to do either.

If you have a SCH, a DRG and a MNK it's probably not a good idea to pull full floors how ever if you have a White Mage, a Black Mage, and a Bard it's almost a waste of potential to pull lest than at least half the floor per pull since they're potential is wasted on single targets.

It also shows good judgment for the Tank to consider the capabilities of the healer and DPS through an examination of gear and seeing if they feel that their skill is up to SRing.

No one should be forced to do either but efficiency always achieves faster runs than failures cause by stubbornness and clashing Egos. And no matter what the player's preference efficiency is one thing every one should be looking for. Just SRing isn't ALWAYS the most efficient method but again the real skill is shown by being able to pick the most efficient method and A DPS/Healer should have already recognized the same just by the party make up. If any one has an objection to a "Normal Run" for that team setup then it should be discussed before pulling which, at most, would only add about 10s to the run. (30s with Consol/slow PC typers)

Well put. Judgment and situational awareness are quantifiable traits of skill in a player.

SR don't really require the use of CD's... I've done SR's with both my 110 WAR & PLD without really using cooldowns at all except on some boss fights or if I herpderp miss an AoE telegraph.



Nope, not grasping straws or sidestepping anything. I'm a realist that sees it for what it is and I don't call a player bad because they don't agree with speedrunning, nor do I force it upon anyone...



I've said it once, wait twice, wait three times... Hell I lost count. Anyway I will say it again. SR is governed by gear and is a matter of preference. The ONLY time I'd say it's considered skillful is if the tank that does the SR is at minimal req lvl and applies his/her mind to it and succeeds at doing it as if he/she were overgeared for the specific dungeon.



Thank you for proving my point.

Speedruns do not require the use of Tank cooldowns?
Our definitions for "speedrun" must be different. If you try to do the pull in WP(Hard) after the first pull past the first boss (the 4-pack pull with 3 mages) without cooldowns, you will die and there will be nothing a healer can do about it.

I've never called a player bad for refusing to speedrun.
I simply stated that I observe poor play from the players I've played with who do not want to speedrun.

Speedrunning is equal parts gear as it is skill.
You cannot attempt a speedrun without a certain degree of gear (most of the time; I healed tanks in i90 gear in the new dungeons that did huge pulls just fine).
You cannot do a successful speedrun if the group is not competent enough to do so. If the healer doesn't know how much damage to expect in each volley of melee swings; if they spam Holy too many times; if they don't know when they should benediction; if they choose a poor time to e4e (drawing aggro to themselves before tank can get it) - then a speedrun will not be successful.

You are cherrypicking my posts and trying to pull a one-liner that you feel proves your point without context for the quote. That is dishonest, and frankly makes me think considerably less of you. I have been forthright and amicable in all of my posts, despite the namecalling and kneejerks I've gotten.
It's unfortunate the same isn't afforded to me. This community seems nice, but it's really passive-aggressive.

Since your points are flawed, I'll stop replying to you until such a time as you come up with a fresh argument to take to me. There simply isn't enough substance to your posts. Just cherrypicking and misreadings of my posts.

[ruskie]

SR don't really require the use of CD's... I've done SR's with both my 110 WAR & PLD without really using cooldowns at all except on some boss fights or if I herpderp miss an AoE telegraph.

I was planing to write something interesting here. But decided against it. *walks away, shaking head in disgust*

if they choose a poor time to e4e (drawing aggro to themselves before tank can get it) - then a speedrun will not be successful.

Only thing that's needed for this to actually work is for the tank to aggro the whole pack instead of a single mob or even just face pull. You grabbed aggro on all? Great I can e4e you the moment I see you coming to a stop(which sadly each tank considers differently). And then I can start to stabilize your HP and after that I can actually maybe holy spam if I feel like doing it(that is up to me and me seeing what you are doing - I've had tanks mass pull then turn off defiance or switch to sword oath - no I will NOT holy carry your arse anymore(yup I'm fed up with mass pullers that then expect to be holy carried)).

Sorry but seen way to many tanks that just face pull or single tag one mob and then go WTF when their HP melts away because I couldn't heal them due to insta aggro. Hell I had tanks tell me not to heal them during pulls - when they ran off with regen still ticking on them.

[ThirdChild_ZKI]

This post is simply you quantifying your own personal skill, but that is not the point of the topic. Perhaps you're a good player. Perhaps not. Either way, it is irrelevant to the assertion I've made that players who do not want to speedrun tend to not be very good.

Just as you used your own personal experience to support your point that most players who prefer not to speedrun tend to be subpar, I used my own to support a counter-argument to that idea. Do not lose yourself in the details, the larger point is very much there.

That is not to say I think that everybody who chooses not to speedrun is a bad player. It is just my observation that many of them have been subpar players.

And it's my observation that the exact opposite is true.

You've been asking valid questions, and have received valid answers that you proceed to pick apart or claim invalid, only to re-ask the question in a perhaps different or more roundabout form. Based on MY observation, you will not be satisfied with any answers or points that do not support your own point. This doesn't make for a very effective discussion on the matter at all.

So let me just say this: Speedrunning is an OPTION, not a requirement. No instance has ever promoted or demanded players speedrun, so it remains an option, even if a preferred one among the majority of the community. Speedrunning also is a poor indicating factor of individual player skill as it is generally gear-based (and we all agree gear does NOT equal skill, yes?) Speedrunning - as an optional method - does not lend itself well to any other content other than dungeons, therefore again, is a poor indication of player skill (You can excel at raids but not at dungeons, and vice versa.) And lastly, Speedrunning - as a preferred method - is something that if players truly want to do without issue, can be arranged in the party finder, just like players who DON'T like/want to speedrun are so often suggested to do. Remember: OPTIONAL, not REQUIRED.

[Teirafon]

OP, I hate speed runs too. When I tank and someone complains about my pace, I just leave.

[Mendalas]

If anyone tries to pull extra packs into your pull, let them tank it.

Of course it's very rude for dps to pull extra packs, but to tell the tank that the dps should just tank it... The healer always gets the shaft in these situations. So really the tank should get hate and just deal with it for the healers sake.

[ThirdChild_ZKI]

You have a very good point, Mendalas, but even as a healer, I'd agree: you pull it, you tank it. Sure, accidents do happen, and I totally don't mind that, but if a DPS oversteps their bounds and intentionally goes off to pull another pack of enemies and expects the tank to just deal with it, then I'm not so forgiving. Now as a DPS, I know not to try to out-tank my tank. If one gets away from him or if I accidentally pull one (Read: ONE) extra enemy, let me handle him. I can put on my big girl panties and take a few hits, if only to cover the healer/buy the tank some time to help me out.

Selfish as it might seem to let a DPS tank something they pull, it's more selfish for the DPS to overstep their tank and pull more than he may/may not have intended.

[Iagainsti]

Speed running is a skill, have to argue(and I'd win) that it takes more skill and knowledge of cooldowns and their timers, positioning, and all around guts really. I'm not sying that non speed runners aren't good players, if you want to snail trail the dungeons, by all means, I just don't waste that time I guess. anyway, to those tanks not popping CDs for massive "to the boss pulls" you're not "speed running" bc you are waiting on healer mp. Anyway, I've been tanking since been tanking(FFXI) and years of 20 min trash fights in that game and I'm glad I can finish repetitive dungeon runs in 20 mins and those who don't want that have too much time on their hands.

[Staris]

People who think speed running doesn't take skill are automatically bad.
It's not about pulling a certain amount of mobs or getting through in X amount of time, its about improving oneself and the synergy of ones group to beat it faster than the last time you did it, with whatever gear you have currently (and planning the improvement of that gear). Even if you gate all the packs, and force CC, you can still clear faster by working on improving your methods, your rotation, your group, your gear. So nothing SE will do will stop many of us from trying to clear as quickly and effectively as possible regardless of who we go with.

So yeah we beat brayflox first 2 bosses in 4 minutes 30 seconds this time, what about 4 minutes 25 seconds next time?
every skill you use, the path you take , the timing of abilities that synergize with other members can be improved to reduce that time.

Its practice, and working towards improving yourself. You can even do it in pugs, by thinking what can you do to reduce the time with whatever random team members you get with whatever random skill/gear levels they have. (and to do this without causing wipes, or having a tolerable risk level)

If you aren't trying to push yourself, the game has literately zero challenge, you make the challenge by doing it as fast as you can.

But I guess some people are ok with half afk no challenge ezmode giv loot please. To me you couldn't be lazier.