Why Speed Pulls?

[Zedd702]

Let's pose the question of the relation between preferred playstyle and personal skill a different way: Which would you say takes a more skilled group of players to pull off?
-Pulling one pack of enemies and dealing with the damage output from that pack as a tank or healer; or
-Pulling multiple packs of enemies and dealing with the damage ouput from that pack as a tank or healer?
With your answer, I'd appreciate if you could quantify why you think that your answer is correct.

I appreciate your continued responses. I know this is a topic you don't like discussing, so it's very good of you to stick around.

I'm actually goin to chime in and give my two cents on this quoted area here. The answer is: that both of these scenarios take a skilled group to pull off. Just as you have had your fair share with bad players being the ones to request smaller packs of enemies, I have had similar experiences with over geared raiders coming into dungeon, calling it brainless content and then they fail because they pull everything not noting the type of team they have to work with for the following reasons:

1. Lack of communication
2. Not even bothering looking at gear until the first wipe.
3. Asking the group if they want a SR, so instead they assume it (this also falls back to #1)
4. Brainless tanking, due to their ego and assumption that it is the healers full responsibility to keep the tank alive even if they stand in AoEs and not use their cooldowns, while spamming flash/OP. And yes I've seen this one ALOT.
5. Healers DPSing and not taking note of the tanks life and how much damage they actually take during large pulls.
6. DPS not knowing which skills to use in rotation to actually make for a successful SR.

All of the above (with the exceptions of #4 & #5) actually stem from communication.

This is not to say that all raiders are this terribad, but this is to give you insight from the other side of your question.

Bad groups fail from the start, only skilled groups complete the task, regardless of how many attempts it took to do so.

[Sousoulsu]

I'm actually goin to chime in and give my two cents on this quoted area here. The answer is: that both of these scenarios take a skilled group to pull off. Just as you have had your fair share with bad players being the ones to request smaller packs of enemies, I have had similar experiences with over geared raiders coming into dungeon, calling it brainless content and then they fail because they pull everything not noting the type of team they have to work with for the following reasons:

1. Lack of communication
2. Not even bothering looking at gear until the first wipe.
3. Asking the group if they want a SR, so instead they assume it (this also falls back to #1)
4. Brainless tanking, due to their ego and assumption that it is the healers full responsibility to keep the tank alive even if they stand in AoEs and not use their cooldowns, while spamming flash/OP. And yes I've seen this one ALOT.
5. Healers DPSing and not taking note of the tanks life and how much damage they actually take during large pulls.
6. DPS not knowing which skills to use in rotation to actually make for a successful SR.

All of the above (with the exceptions of #4 & #5) actually stem from communication.

This is not to say that all raiders are this terribad, but this is to give you insight from the other side of your question.

Bad groups fail from the start, only skilled groups complete the task, regardless of how many attempts it took to do so.

I appreciate your response, but it is not an answer to the question I posed - and I have a feeling you're sidestepping the question.
A completely unskilled group will fall flat on its face from the get-go.
What I asked is:

Which of these two requires a more skilled group than the other?
-Doing single-pulls, or
-Doing multiple pulls

[Zedd702]

I appreciate your response, but it is not an answer to the question I posed - and I have a feeling you're sidestepping the question.
A completely unskilled group will fall flat on its face from the get-go.
What I asked is:

No... you are just trying to seek an answer you want to hear vs the reality of the bigger picture.

What you want to hear is that SR = more skilled players and that Speedrunning = skill... and that is not the case.

The reality of the matter is that it takes skill to complete a dungeon whether it is speed running, casual mob by mob, or w/e other method.

People can classify speed running as a reckless tactic, which I've seen many different ways of doing speed running. Some require skill, coordination, knowledge of your job/role, and no interruptions in real life. Others just run through all trash mobs sacrificing the tank while the group runs in to the boss and once the tank dies and enemies reset the healer will resurrect the tank and then we can begin the boss fight. The latter method, though reckless, actually requires communication, but lots of players fail at that so they might not have known of that strategy...

What I provided was a proper answer to your question, just because it's not what you want to hear does not make it unacceptable...

[Mykll]

Let's pose the question of the relation between preferred playstyle and personal skill a different way: Which would you say takes a more skilled group of players to pull off?
-Pulling one pack of enemies and dealing with the damage output from that pack as a tank or healer; or
-Pulling multiple packs of enemies and dealing with the damage ouput from that pack as a tank or healer?

I'll start my response off nice and slow.

A single mob, doesn't take much. All either tank has to do is 1-2-3. Depending, probably don't even need to be in tank stance either.

2 mobs. Takes more skill. You at least have to Flash, or Overpower, maybe even alternate between the two, to get that #3 hit of your combo to nail down enmity, or to at least see if someone is about to overtake you on enmity.

3 mobs. I would say takes a little more skill. But not a whole lot. If can tab to 2 different mobs, you can tab to 3.

4 mobs. Takes a little more skill. You are really starting to lose keeping your tank debuff on everything. Not going to be able to keep either tank debuffs on all the time on them all. Really this starts with 3. But with 4 you are going to also be doing more of your AOE enmity builders, than doing it initially and alternating hits between the mobs.

So until now, absolutely I can see a steady increase in skill of what the tank has to do, as well as what the healer has to heal.

5 mobs. I'll even give it to you that even here it would take still a little more skill over 4 mobs.

But then in my mind it just kind of flat lines right around here.

10 mobs. You are going to basically tanking the exact same way as with 5 mobs, and the healer is going to have to heal and deal with the greater incoming damage, but, it is more gear saving you, again in my mind, with 10 mobs, than say the skill it requires with 5. Because both the tank and the healer will be doing the exact same things, only the gear reduces the damage, increases health for more buffer, and gives better healing.

[Sousoulsu]

No... you are just trying to seek an answer you want to hear vs the reality of the bigger picture.

What you want to hear is that SR = more skilled players and that Speedrunning = skill... and that is not the case.

The reality of the matter is that it takes skill to complete a dungeon whether it is speed running, casual mob by mob, or w/e other method.

People can classify speed running as a reckless tactic, which I've seen many different ways of doing speed running. Some require skill, coordination, knowledge of your job/role, and no interruptions in real life. Others just run through all trash mobs sacrificing the tank while the group runs in to the boss and once the tank dies and enemies reset the healer will resurrect the tank and then we can begin the boss fight.The latter method, though reckless, actually requires communication, but lots of players fail at that so they might not have known of that strategy...

What I provided was a proper answer to your question, just because it's not what you want to hear does not make it unacceptable...

I posed a simple question to get a simple answer in order to further the discussion past the question of "skill".
I acknowledge what you're saying, but if I'm being honest it's just a lot of fluff.
However, you answered the question amidst the fluff, so moving on:

Since Speedrunning typically requires more skill from the players than single-pulling, it can be assumed that people who opt to single-pull tend to be less skilled than people who opt to speedrun.
/topic closed

Back on the original topic: Why do you, in-particular, dislike speedrunning? =3

10 mobs. You are going to basically tanking the exact same way as with 5 mobs, and the healer is going to have to heal and deal with the greater incoming damage, but, it is more gear saving you, again in my mind, with 10 mobs, than say the skill it requires with 5. Because both the tank and the healer will be doing the exact same things, only the gear reduces the damage, increases health for more buffer, and gives better healing.

Generally speaking, you're right. But I would say it doesn't flatline after 5; but the increase isn't exponential anymore. It just requires the tank to be better at cooldown management and the healer to know when spikes are coming and be aware of what the tank has available.
Large pulls definitely take more skill as well as gear to pull off, but once you have the gear, more skill will let you get away with more.

I think what makes this topic so sore to some people is that they're used to other MMOs, where dungeons are challenging in their own - or can't be steamrolled because trash have mechanics or abilities that make it impossible.
This is not so in XIV.
I think it's a flaw in XIV's dungeon design. A flaw I would like to be alleviated. But as it is now, speedrunning is prevelent in the community. While not at all an exhaustive study:

http://strawpoll.me/3728005/r

shows general community sentiments; and will get slightly more accurate as more people vote on it.

[ThirdChild_ZKI]

No... you are just trying to seek an answer you want to hear vs the reality of the bigger picture. . .

What you want to hear is that SR = more skilled players and that Speedrunning = skill... and that is not the case. . .

What I provided was a proper answer to your question, just because it's not what you want to hear does not make it unacceptable...

This is exactly what I noted several times already too. I'm glad I'm not the only one that sees it.

[Sousoulsu]

This is exactly what I noted several times already too. I'm glad I'm not the only one that sees it.

I've already addressed this sentiment.
The point of this topic is not player skill. But since the subject came up, I felt beholden to address it.

I've only ever ignored sentiments that are outwardly hostile, or that fail to address something I actually said (as opposed to something you perceived I said).

If you'd like to continue the correlation between skill and people who opt not to speedrun, we can. That's on you. I simply addressed something that came up without my even mentioning it.

[Zedd702]

Since Speedrunning typically requires more skill from the players than single-pulling, it can be assumed that people who opt to single-pull tend to be less skilled than people who opt to speedrun.
/topic closed

Amusing that you still take it as though I said SR = a more skill group from my latest response... Let me clarify in saying that this is far from the truth. And I will explain why.

1. Speed running requires alot less from a tank other than spamming the their AoE/Cone high enmity attacks/skills, excessive movement (mostly due to not being able to see telegraphs with all the graphics from BLM Fire spam among other attacks) and the occasional popping of CD's to make the team think you know what you are doing with holding hate and mitigating damage.

2. It also demands a lot from the healer, more than they should really have to do and it also requires the healer to play the most on point than Tanks and DPS in SR's. Let me take a moment to touch on #2. Anyone notice that healers are more in demand now than tanks are in queues? I'd say SR teams have a HUGE impact on that because healers want to do more than spam cure every recharge...

3. SR does not teach a player anything, but how to piss off a healer... You cant tell me SR teaches you anything that would be remotely useful for coils. It's a reckless attempt to shave a few minutes off completing the dungeon for people who only care about themselves in farming the most tomes possible, which boils down to preference, not player skill. Nice try though...

Back on the original topic: Why do you, in-particular, dislike speedrunning? =3

I never said I dislike SR to begin with, this shows just how much you paid attention to what I've wrote in this thread. I don't mind SR at the request of my team, but there are days I want to enjoy my game, but I still pull two packs by habit, unless I notice something about team make-up or I feel there might be an issue with combining certain types of enemies in mass pulls.

[Zedd702]

I'm not a fan of double posting but this is indeed worthy of a separate post...

Sousoulsu: I find it very funny that I replied to you about "minority" votes on SR's in a totally different thread (I believe it was JUST yesterday) and then there is this in your signature today:

Do nyew like speedruns? Do nyew dislike speedruns? Do nyew wish people would stop talking about speedruns?
http://strawpoll.me/3728005/r

Are you that hellbent to attempt to prove a point about general populace? You do realize that even your poll will not be accurate enough for you to label any one group a "minority" of the subject, don't you?

Also... I would like to add that SR's are more gear than actual player skill for the tank... If a Tank at the minimum ilvl req entered a dungeon and attempted a "pull to boss" SR run. I'm afraid to say that no matter how skillful that tank is, he will die as the healer will not be able to heal the amount of incoming damage with a tank who meets ilvl req... SR's are mostly governed by gear, NOT player skill. The ability to dodge telegraphs, know when to apply your CDs, combos, and keeping an eye on your enmity bars while toggling targets, THAT takes skill...

EDIT: Here it is

No ma'am... I like how people come up with this slew of garbage and assuming that people who don't want to speed run all the time are in the minority based on their own personal experiences... When you can come with actual numbers and static statistics where you count a LARGE percent of the player-base in your poll regarding that subject then you can speak about minority but until then, don't try to act like you know what you are talking about on that subject... SR is a matter of preference...

On subject: The rest of your quote was spot on about the assignments of each alliance for WoD.

[Sousoulsu]

Amusing that you still take it as though I said SR = a more skill group from my latest response... Let me clarify in saying that this is far from the truth. And I will explain why.

1. Speed running requires alot less from a tank other than spamming the their AoE/Cone high enmity attacks/skills, excessive movement (mostly due to not being able to see telegraphs with all the graphics from BLM Fire spam among other attacks) and the occasional popping of CD's to make the team think you know what you are doing with holding hate and mitigating damage.
2. It also demands a lot from the healer, more than they should really have to do and it also requires the healer to play the most on point than Tanks and DPS in SR's. Let me take a moment to touch on #2. Anyone notice that healers are more in demand now than tanks are in queues? I'd say SR teams have a HUGE impact on that because healers want to do more than spam cure every recharge...

3. SR does not teach a player anything, but how to piss off a healer... You cant tell me SR teaches you anything that would be remotely useful for coils. It's a reckless attempt to shave a few minutes off completing the dungeon for people who only care about themselves in farming the most tomes possible, which boils down to preference, not player skill. Nice try though...



I never said I dislike SR to begin with, this shows just how much you paid attention to what I've wrote in this thread. I don't mind SR at the request of my team, but there are days I want to enjoy my game, but I still pull two packs by habit, unless I notice something about team make-up or I feel there might be an issue with combining certain types of enemies in mass pulls.

1)Speed running requires the tank to know when to pop which CDs, when to save bigger ones for certain pulls, and shield swiping properly makes some huge pulls possible. Probably not much so anymore with gear, but it's still a skill-dependent trait.

2)I agree that speedrunning is harder to heal than to tank, but that does not diminish that it requires more skill as a player to tank a speedrun than single pulls. "Healers should not have to work so hard" is, frankly, irrelevant to if it requires more skill or not.

3)Dungeon content is different than coil. speedrunning requires a different set of skill than coil. Being good in coil does not mean you are good at speedrunning. Being good at speedrunning does not mean you are good in coil. Different content is different. I've never made any argument that might suggest otherwise.

In dungeon content, it requires more skill to speedrun than to do single pulls. It is not reckless if you do it right. It is not the intended way to tackle the content, but it is definetly not reckless unless the tank overpulls (another tank skill dependent trait).

Everything in this game is gear dependent. Speedruns require both gear and skill. Both help with making a speedrun faster and more successful. You cannot attempt a speedrun unless you have gear. However, I've healed an ilvl 90 tank through the new dungeons and they speedpulled as much as possible. A less skilled tank who doesn't know when to use which cooldowns could not pull that off.


It just seems like you're grasping at straws in order to sidestep admitting that speedruns take more individual skill than single pulls. Which is silly, because if I ask any random person not involved in this discussion, they would agree.

I apologize for mixing you up as someone who does not like speedrunning. It seems we disagree on which is more skill-intensive; not on if speedrunning should be done or not. ^^