Why Speed Pulls?

[Sousoulsu]

snip

I think what you're failing to understand is that DS fell out of rotation because it was weak. When it got buffed, it was no longer weak - and should be used in the right circumstance. It's fairly rare that you can't hit all the mobs with DS. Try experimenting with it. You may be surprised.

"Doing what you like" works just fine, but if you want to be optimal you do what is mathematically superior, in terms of potency and targets-hit. DS is unarguably better than RoT, and the circumstances where you cannot hit all the enemies if you position yourself properly are fairly rare.

You are probably a fine player. But the difference between a fine player and a good player is "doing what you like" and "doing what is optimal".

[Sousoulsu]

PEOPLE WHO DONT WANT SPEEDRUNS =/= BAD PLAYERS.

While this anecdotal evidence, I have never played with somebody who refused to do speedpulls who was remotely good.

Losing hate to lower-geared DPS, not using cover when hate was lost for an extended period, forgetting poisons and not putting them on even when reminded with sound-macros, not being able to heal through single-pulls, not multi-dotting as SMN.
Things like that, I've seen from a lot of players. But every person who has expressed that they do not want to do speedpulls have done similar to the examples above, in my experience.

not wanting to speedpull does not mean you are a bad player. correlation=/=causation. But it sure is a fairly reliable indicator of it.

[ThirdChild_ZKI]

No. Not at all. What you were doing before was unarguably spam, though. You were contributing nothing to the topic and just saying how much you hate speedrunning without giving any reasons why; and when prompted by me, you responded with vitriol.

I understand your viewpoint a bit better, even if it's just fuelled by a generally bad taste from Brayflox HM speedruns. What I have issue with now is that you seem to have a problem with people forcing speedrunning on you - but you quit dungeons when everyone but you wants to speedrun?
Wouldn't you say that's forcing your playstyle on the group?
Majority rules. If you queue into DF and do not conform to the majority party sentiment, that is rude.

Thanks for calming yourself and responding as you did.

If I might clarify a few points:

- It certainly goes beyond Brayflox HM, especially given that it is such a popular method. That one is just a very well known case of it.
- If I implied I quit if forced to speedrun, then that was a mistake in the telling. I don't. If with friends and I know they want to, I'll try to decline before we queue, knowing that my preference is not shared by the majority of the group. If I queue DF and I really don't feel like it, I'll either just deal with it, speak up, or at the WORST, leave. And I'm free to do so at any given time. I'm well aware of this freedom and exercise it freely at my own whim.
- Choosing to leave when my preferences are not in line with the rest of the party is far from forcing my playstyle on them. Choosing to stay and disrupt any efforts to speedrun would be forcing. But I opt to bow out and let someone who would share their desire to speedrun join. . . That sounds far more diplomatic to me. I don't have to do something I don't want, and they can have a full consensus among their party (hopefully) with a different member. . . THAT sounds efficient if you ask me.
- Again, I'm aware that I have no say over what I get if I queue with randoms in DF. At the same time however, I am in no way bound to conform to majority party sentiment. Ever. Don't let yourself think otherwise, or you may very well find yourself on the losing end of that some time, and unjustly so.

[ThirdChild_ZKI]

not wanting to speedpull does not mean you are a bad player. correlation=/=causation. But it sure is a fairly reliable indicator of it.

In no way insultingly, your experience leads you to make too many assumptions.

My abilities as a player - regardless of how anyone might want to scrutinize - are just fine. Exceptional even. This is something I know to be personally true, and something frequently celebrated by other players both known and random. Self confidence and praise aside, let me state that I've done speedruns, PLENTY of them to this day, and on all three roles. I started the game as a tank, and regardless of methods, just never enjoyed it fully (ironically, because I feel like the classes themselves are slow), I became a DPS fell in love with it, learned what I could do, should do, then how I could bend any and every one of those rules at will for whatever's best for my party. THEN I started healing. Turns out I actually really enjoy it. I made more of a name for myself as a highly capable player in Second Coil as a WHM more than I did as my chosen primary, to the point that people preferred me on a secondary role over my main. At face value, can you dispute THAT speaks of skill and ability?

I can still tank just fine, and occasionally dust off the old sword & shield to help friends, but I know I'm simply not enjoying myself fully when I do. Not even with friends. And especially not with randoms. Why? Because of people who believe you MUST be able to speedrun and do so to be a good tank. Because of people - usually NOT tanks or ones who didn't queue as such - telling you how you should tank, and generally dealing in absolutes. Were I to apply your same logic, I'd say this: I can tank as a Bard - a class with no enmity tools and far less defense, and have done so MANY times. . . That's an indication I'm an EXCELLENT tank.

So let me simplify the statement a bit and say this: My desire not to speedrun - because regardless if I'm a Tank, Healer, or DPS I find it boring, and generally NOT fun - is in no way an indication of my overall skill as a player, and to even imply basis in that is not only foolish but shortsighted. To assume that not wanting to means that you can't or can't properly is again, foolish. I don't enjoy doing it, because - PLEASE READ - I DON'T ENJOY IT. It's not about efficiency, not about numbers, not about optimization of skills and abilities (THAT idea, honestly makes me laugh hard), and it certainly isn't about time. It begins and ends with whether I'm actually enjoying what I'm doing, in-game.

/dropmic

[Mykll]

I'll add something else. Because nobody asked and nobody really cares. But you get it anyway!

Go back before WoW, and there was EQ. I played mainly Monk, and Enchanter, and Bard. I was an expert puller, an expert crowd controller. I guess I miss that technical / finesse side of things, rather than the "Hulk AOE SMASH!"

I played a healer in WoW, a LOT. First game I played a true healer. In FF, I of course played healer again, a LOT. Even though they are different games, I healed a LOT of tanks. I paid attention to what they did good, what they did bad, how they pulled, where they stood, all that. So when I finally decided to try a tank for real here, with a lot of history I have seen what the really good tanks have done and not done.

Also, FF is the first game I have been able to play a tank really. A real tank, not a pet class tank found in many games. I couldn't stand it before, for a number of reasons. So I tend to be more of the former technical side of things, rather than the now AOE smash optimum button pressing side of things.

It's fairly rare that you can't hit all the mobs with DS.

I figured out how to pull certain groups of mobs where if you pull it just right, they actually form a straight line in front of you. I do that (try to, nothing is 100%) if there is a DRG or MNK (yeah one attack on long cool down) in the group. I have no idea if DS is good or bad. Don't have a clue and pressing buttons according to a spreadsheet is no fun for me. BUT, if I can line them up in a line, instead of them being in a circle and all over the place, I do, to give them the option of using it or not.

[Kaiser-Ace]

snip

Now this is an interesting development. We're getting somewhere now.

So you HAVE noticed why DS needs to be reworked into the rotation. And You're right, if the situation is right one should always take an opportunity to use a more powerful skill.

Rotations are patterns that we follow to keep our combos going. Weather it be Speed Combos, Chain Casting (healer/mage rotations), or Endless Buff (A Tank cool down rotation to keep at least one buff up at all times), there are patterns we follow and get use too. When 3.0 comes out and the lvl cap is raised to 60, we're all going to have to change our rotations a bit to add in the new skills in the best combination.

I think as far as the Dragoon issue goes we've come to an understanding. And don't get me wrong, I still claim to be pretty good because I am, but there is a lot of improvement that I could make as there is every one. Improvement is always achievable because we're always learning how to handle things better. I learned that as a Dragoon my animation locks actually make paralysis a near moot point because by the time I freeze my animation lock has got me any way. And my armor is high enough to take a few hits and live. But keeping my stats properly in balance is something I always have to work on so I do.

Nothing is as cut and dry in practice as it is on paper but it's how we adapt and still win that makes the line between good players and bad. You can be ilvl 130 with full dread wyrm gear + weapon, but if you can't work with a "Non-Optimal Set Up" then your T13 clear means nothing, how ever even a team full of i80 noobs could be powered through by a t13 vet who knew how to work with what they had even if that meant mixing it up from the "Preferred Method" to turn an absolute crap fest into an epic win.

[Sousoulsu]

---

Our sentiments are the same.
You just did not like the way I voiced them before.

Math is how you find out what ability is worth using, and when. It shouldn't be denounced, neither should it be used as a substitute for player skill. A good player uses both.

[ShaneDawn]

Well, I can understand people doing Zodiac for example hoping for speed runs. I did 30+ runs of Dzemael, Pharos and AK, and getting the occasional slow puller made running the stuff even worse. But in the end, it's the tanks choice how much he wants to/feels like he can handle pulling. I didn't whine about small pulls, but I can understand the frustration after doing the same stuff consecutively xy times.

[Sousoulsu]

/dropmic

This post is simply you quantifying your own personal skill, but that is not the point of the topic. Perhaps you're a good player. Perhaps not. Either way, it is irrelevant to the assertion I've made that players who do not want to speedrun tend to not be very good.

So, to reiterate what I said in the post you quoted, somebody isn't a bad player because they don't want to speedrun. But in my experiences, people who don't want to speedrun have been subpar players in a fundamental sense. (Using Doton on a single target, failing to hold aggro off of lower-geared DPS, being unable to heal people during light damage in a single pull, etc).
That is not to say I think that everybody who chooses not to speedrun is a bad player. It is just my observation that many of them have been subpar players.


Let's pose the question of the relation between preferred playstyle and personal skill a different way: Which would you say takes a more skilled group of players to pull off?
-Pulling one pack of enemies and dealing with the damage output from that pack as a tank or healer; or
-Pulling multiple packs of enemies and dealing with the damage ouput from that pack as a tank or healer?
With your answer, I'd appreciate if you could quantify why you think that your answer is correct.

I appreciate your continued responses. I know this is a topic you don't like discussing, so it's very good of you to stick around.

[Kaiser-Ace]

Our sentiments are the same.
You just did not like the way I voiced them before.

Math is how you find out what ability is worth using, and when. It shouldn't be denounced, neither should it be used as a substitute for player skill. A good player uses both.

Agreed. Seems it was simply a miss understanding. Looks like we both had the same conclusion just different routs to seeing it. And I respect that fact with the greatest sincerity.