Why Speed Pulls?

[Sousoulsu]

Oh believe me, it took 12 pages, I think, before I even finally worked up the energy to respond here. Again, see #2. This isn't the first thread about this. This isn't even the fifth one. And this isn't even the tenth time I've said/am saying exactly what I'm saying now. So let me at least try to make it somewhat interesting this time around:

No, you don't get the satisfaction of a counter-argument. I'm not going to bother giving you reasons - factual or opinion based - to attack or dispute. Keep the numbers and the rationalization. Seen it, heard it, still hate speedruns. No matter which class. And frankly, that seems like more of a problem for you than it is for me. I'd wonder why, but I have about as much interest in that as I do speedruns.

Yet you take the time and effort to type to me about how little you care about the subject at hand.
If only I had the time to respond to a topic I don't care about~ Maybe then I'd appreciate slowrunning more! :3c

If it's a topic that's come up so frequently, it should be relatively clear to you that speedrunning is a play style choice in the community that will not go away. As players get better at the game over time, I expect to see anti-speedrunning sentiments to dwindle lower and lower. It's the natural progression of things like this in MMO communities.

While it is up to individual interpretation, I've responded civilly to everything in this thread. I am genuinely curious about why people opt to do single pulls rather than multi. You've contributed nothing to this inquiry, and are replying with spam.
{I'm sorry.}

[Rasylia]

If it's a topic that's come up so frequently, it should be relatively clear to you that speedrunning is a play style choice in the community that will not go away. As players get better at the game over time, I expect to see anti-speedrunning sentiments to dwindle lower and lower. It's the natural progression of things like this in MMO communities.

AND AGAIN.

You do it AGAIN and AGAIN and AGAIN.

PEOPLE WHO DONT WANT SPEEDRUNS =/= BAD PLAYERS.
What is so hard to understand. Just because not everyone is playing at 150%, oing his utmost best, and playing ONLY for effincy doesnt mean he is BAD. He is just relaxed, and doesnt take every little dungeon as T13 raid which requires everyone doing 100%.

[Sousoulsu]

PEOPLE WHO DONT WANT SPEEDRUNS =/= BAD PLAYERS.

While this anecdotal evidence, I have never played with somebody who refused to do speedpulls who was remotely good.

Losing hate to lower-geared DPS, not using cover when hate was lost for an extended period, forgetting poisons and not putting them on even when reminded with sound-macros, not being able to heal through single-pulls, not multi-dotting as SMN.
Things like that, I've seen from a lot of players. But every person who has expressed that they do not want to do speedpulls have done similar to the examples above, in my experience.

not wanting to speedpull does not mean you are a bad player. correlation=/=causation. But it sure is a fairly reliable indicator of it.

[ThirdChild_ZKI]

not wanting to speedpull does not mean you are a bad player. correlation=/=causation. But it sure is a fairly reliable indicator of it.

In no way insultingly, your experience leads you to make too many assumptions.

My abilities as a player - regardless of how anyone might want to scrutinize - are just fine. Exceptional even. This is something I know to be personally true, and something frequently celebrated by other players both known and random. Self confidence and praise aside, let me state that I've done speedruns, PLENTY of them to this day, and on all three roles. I started the game as a tank, and regardless of methods, just never enjoyed it fully (ironically, because I feel like the classes themselves are slow), I became a DPS fell in love with it, learned what I could do, should do, then how I could bend any and every one of those rules at will for whatever's best for my party. THEN I started healing. Turns out I actually really enjoy it. I made more of a name for myself as a highly capable player in Second Coil as a WHM more than I did as my chosen primary, to the point that people preferred me on a secondary role over my main. At face value, can you dispute THAT speaks of skill and ability?

I can still tank just fine, and occasionally dust off the old sword & shield to help friends, but I know I'm simply not enjoying myself fully when I do. Not even with friends. And especially not with randoms. Why? Because of people who believe you MUST be able to speedrun and do so to be a good tank. Because of people - usually NOT tanks or ones who didn't queue as such - telling you how you should tank, and generally dealing in absolutes. Were I to apply your same logic, I'd say this: I can tank as a Bard - a class with no enmity tools and far less defense, and have done so MANY times. . . That's an indication I'm an EXCELLENT tank.

So let me simplify the statement a bit and say this: My desire not to speedrun - because regardless if I'm a Tank, Healer, or DPS I find it boring, and generally NOT fun - is in no way an indication of my overall skill as a player, and to even imply basis in that is not only foolish but shortsighted. To assume that not wanting to means that you can't or can't properly is again, foolish. I don't enjoy doing it, because - PLEASE READ - I DON'T ENJOY IT. It's not about efficiency, not about numbers, not about optimization of skills and abilities (THAT idea, honestly makes me laugh hard), and it certainly isn't about time. It begins and ends with whether I'm actually enjoying what I'm doing, in-game.

/dropmic

[Sousoulsu]

/dropmic

This post is simply you quantifying your own personal skill, but that is not the point of the topic. Perhaps you're a good player. Perhaps not. Either way, it is irrelevant to the assertion I've made that players who do not want to speedrun tend to not be very good.

So, to reiterate what I said in the post you quoted, somebody isn't a bad player because they don't want to speedrun. But in my experiences, people who don't want to speedrun have been subpar players in a fundamental sense. (Using Doton on a single target, failing to hold aggro off of lower-geared DPS, being unable to heal people during light damage in a single pull, etc).
That is not to say I think that everybody who chooses not to speedrun is a bad player. It is just my observation that many of them have been subpar players.


Let's pose the question of the relation between preferred playstyle and personal skill a different way: Which would you say takes a more skilled group of players to pull off?
-Pulling one pack of enemies and dealing with the damage output from that pack as a tank or healer; or
-Pulling multiple packs of enemies and dealing with the damage ouput from that pack as a tank or healer?
With your answer, I'd appreciate if you could quantify why you think that your answer is correct.

I appreciate your continued responses. I know this is a topic you don't like discussing, so it's very good of you to stick around.

[Zedd702]

Let's pose the question of the relation between preferred playstyle and personal skill a different way: Which would you say takes a more skilled group of players to pull off?
-Pulling one pack of enemies and dealing with the damage output from that pack as a tank or healer; or
-Pulling multiple packs of enemies and dealing with the damage ouput from that pack as a tank or healer?
With your answer, I'd appreciate if you could quantify why you think that your answer is correct.

I appreciate your continued responses. I know this is a topic you don't like discussing, so it's very good of you to stick around.

I'm actually goin to chime in and give my two cents on this quoted area here. The answer is: that both of these scenarios take a skilled group to pull off. Just as you have had your fair share with bad players being the ones to request smaller packs of enemies, I have had similar experiences with over geared raiders coming into dungeon, calling it brainless content and then they fail because they pull everything not noting the type of team they have to work with for the following reasons:

1. Lack of communication
2. Not even bothering looking at gear until the first wipe.
3. Asking the group if they want a SR, so instead they assume it (this also falls back to #1)
4. Brainless tanking, due to their ego and assumption that it is the healers full responsibility to keep the tank alive even if they stand in AoEs and not use their cooldowns, while spamming flash/OP. And yes I've seen this one ALOT.
5. Healers DPSing and not taking note of the tanks life and how much damage they actually take during large pulls.
6. DPS not knowing which skills to use in rotation to actually make for a successful SR.

All of the above (with the exceptions of #4 & #5) actually stem from communication.

This is not to say that all raiders are this terribad, but this is to give you insight from the other side of your question.

Bad groups fail from the start, only skilled groups complete the task, regardless of how many attempts it took to do so.

[Sousoulsu]

I'm actually goin to chime in and give my two cents on this quoted area here. The answer is: that both of these scenarios take a skilled group to pull off. Just as you have had your fair share with bad players being the ones to request smaller packs of enemies, I have had similar experiences with over geared raiders coming into dungeon, calling it brainless content and then they fail because they pull everything not noting the type of team they have to work with for the following reasons:

1. Lack of communication
2. Not even bothering looking at gear until the first wipe.
3. Asking the group if they want a SR, so instead they assume it (this also falls back to #1)
4. Brainless tanking, due to their ego and assumption that it is the healers full responsibility to keep the tank alive even if they stand in AoEs and not use their cooldowns, while spamming flash/OP. And yes I've seen this one ALOT.
5. Healers DPSing and not taking note of the tanks life and how much damage they actually take during large pulls.
6. DPS not knowing which skills to use in rotation to actually make for a successful SR.

All of the above (with the exceptions of #4 & #5) actually stem from communication.

This is not to say that all raiders are this terribad, but this is to give you insight from the other side of your question.

Bad groups fail from the start, only skilled groups complete the task, regardless of how many attempts it took to do so.

I appreciate your response, but it is not an answer to the question I posed - and I have a feeling you're sidestepping the question.
A completely unskilled group will fall flat on its face from the get-go.
What I asked is:

Which of these two requires a more skilled group than the other?
-Doing single-pulls, or
-Doing multiple pulls

[Mykll]

Let's pose the question of the relation between preferred playstyle and personal skill a different way: Which would you say takes a more skilled group of players to pull off?
-Pulling one pack of enemies and dealing with the damage output from that pack as a tank or healer; or
-Pulling multiple packs of enemies and dealing with the damage ouput from that pack as a tank or healer?

I'll start my response off nice and slow.

A single mob, doesn't take much. All either tank has to do is 1-2-3. Depending, probably don't even need to be in tank stance either.

2 mobs. Takes more skill. You at least have to Flash, or Overpower, maybe even alternate between the two, to get that #3 hit of your combo to nail down enmity, or to at least see if someone is about to overtake you on enmity.

3 mobs. I would say takes a little more skill. But not a whole lot. If can tab to 2 different mobs, you can tab to 3.

4 mobs. Takes a little more skill. You are really starting to lose keeping your tank debuff on everything. Not going to be able to keep either tank debuffs on all the time on them all. Really this starts with 3. But with 4 you are going to also be doing more of your AOE enmity builders, than doing it initially and alternating hits between the mobs.

So until now, absolutely I can see a steady increase in skill of what the tank has to do, as well as what the healer has to heal.

5 mobs. I'll even give it to you that even here it would take still a little more skill over 4 mobs.

But then in my mind it just kind of flat lines right around here.

10 mobs. You are going to basically tanking the exact same way as with 5 mobs, and the healer is going to have to heal and deal with the greater incoming damage, but, it is more gear saving you, again in my mind, with 10 mobs, than say the skill it requires with 5. Because both the tank and the healer will be doing the exact same things, only the gear reduces the damage, increases health for more buffer, and gives better healing.

[ThirdChild_ZKI]

This post is simply you quantifying your own personal skill, but that is not the point of the topic. Perhaps you're a good player. Perhaps not. Either way, it is irrelevant to the assertion I've made that players who do not want to speedrun tend to not be very good.

Just as you used your own personal experience to support your point that most players who prefer not to speedrun tend to be subpar, I used my own to support a counter-argument to that idea. Do not lose yourself in the details, the larger point is very much there.

That is not to say I think that everybody who chooses not to speedrun is a bad player. It is just my observation that many of them have been subpar players.

And it's my observation that the exact opposite is true.

You've been asking valid questions, and have received valid answers that you proceed to pick apart or claim invalid, only to re-ask the question in a perhaps different or more roundabout form. Based on MY observation, you will not be satisfied with any answers or points that do not support your own point. This doesn't make for a very effective discussion on the matter at all.

So let me just say this: Speedrunning is an OPTION, not a requirement. No instance has ever promoted or demanded players speedrun, so it remains an option, even if a preferred one among the majority of the community. Speedrunning also is a poor indicating factor of individual player skill as it is generally gear-based (and we all agree gear does NOT equal skill, yes?) Speedrunning - as an optional method - does not lend itself well to any other content other than dungeons, therefore again, is a poor indication of player skill (You can excel at raids but not at dungeons, and vice versa.) And lastly, Speedrunning - as a preferred method - is something that if players truly want to do without issue, can be arranged in the party finder, just like players who DON'T like/want to speedrun are so often suggested to do. Remember: OPTIONAL, not REQUIRED.

[Sousoulsu]

Just as you used your own personal experience to support your point that most players who prefer not to speedrun tend to be subpar, I used my own to support a counter-argument to that idea. Do not lose yourself in the details, the larger point is very much there.

And it's my observation that the exact opposite is true.

You've been asking valid questions, and have received valid answers that you proceed to pick apart or claim invalid, only to re-ask the question in a perhaps different or more roundabout form. Based on MY observation, you will not be satisfied with any answers or points that do not support your own point. This doesn't make for a very effective discussion on the matter at all.

So let me just say this: Speedrunning is an OPTION, not a requirement. No instance has ever promoted or demanded players speedrun, so it remains an option, even if a preferred one among the majority of the community. Speedrunning also is a poor indicating factor of individual player skill as it is generally gear-based (and we all agree gear does NOT equal skill, yes?) Speedrunning - as an optional method - does not lend itself well to any other content other than dungeons, therefore again, is a poor indication of player skill (You can excel at raids but not at dungeons, and vice versa.) And lastly, Speedrunning - as a preferred method - is something that if players truly want to do without issue, can be arranged in the party finder, just like players who DON'T like/want to speedrun are so often suggested to do. Remember: OPTIONAL, not REQUIRED.

Is this you?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mIm-p7a4xBI
If it is; you're decent. There's a few things you outright mess up on (priority of ability use, DoT uptime, CD order) - but since it's a No-tank run, those nitpicks can be written off. No-tank dungeons tend to focus more on the healer's ability than anybody else's, but still.
There are a few things that make me think, just from this example, that you are not as good a player as you seem to be setting forward in previous posts:
-Refreshing DoTs on an enemy that will die within seconds (many times)
-Not refreshing DoTs after they've fallen off a boss enemy until 3+GCDs later
-Using AoE skills at below the number of enemies that would make them worth using
-getting hit by AoEs
-tank-turning (controller)
Also, despite prior claims, you do not keep aggro consistantly while no-tanking. It's unfeasible to expect, but you claimed you did. And you do not.

Overall, from this example, I can safely say you are not as good a player as you set forth to back up your claims (as if they are relevant to the notion that "most people who choose not to speedrun are not good players").
This was posted months ago, so I'm sure you've improved since then. But overall, this is fairly low-quality play, if I am being perfectly blunt with you.

Again, I never said that everybody who chooses not to speedrun is bad. I just said that in most cases I have witnessed, that has been the case. And I can now chalk you down as "evidence" for that sentiment. I never really wanted to bring up personal skill, but since you did, I feel as though I need to address it.