Why Speed Pulls?

[Its_Elodie]

I agree OP, it seems like most of the playerbase is out to zerg all content as fast as possible. I don't tank a lot of the content anymore unless its an FC group or with friends because I got tired of the rush, rush, rush attitude a looooong time ago. If the zergfest is agreed upon at the beginning of the dungeon between all of its members its kosher. Tanks call the speed of the dungeon since they have the defensive capabilities and gear to do so. If that really bothers people when they que up and consistently don't like the pace people are generally running it as, feel free to roll your own tank and then you can call the shots. We wait long ques as dps classes and to a lesser extent healing classes for a tank to simply show up in our que. Do you like that wait? Keeping people on a constant time clock (who don't want to be) when they are logged on a game like they are at work obviously isn't fun for everyone (hence this thread). ...and people wonder why there's a tank shortage.

[Ooshima]

Keeping people on a constant time clock (who don't want to be) when they are logged on a game like they are at work obviously isn't fun for everyone (hence this thread). ...and people wonder why there's a tank shortage.

On the contrary there is just as much people who would tank and pull the whole damned street, if only the other 3 members are competent enough. Times when I enter as tank, I look at how my DPS do their job and how the WHM just stood there AFKing instead of throwing a holy or two to make things more fun, I'd say screw it, I rather queue as BLM and blow things up.

[chidarake]

On the contrary there is just as much people who would tank and pull the whole damned street, if only the other 3 members are competent enough. Times when I enter as tank, I look at how my DPS do their job and how the WHM just stood there AFKing instead of throwing a holy or two to make things more fun, I'd say screw it, I rather queue as BLM and blow things up.

this totally, when I tank which is daily.. I also see dps who cant do decent damage and healers just barely keeping me alive on a few trash pulls, no way I can speed run with those people. that's fine its df..

however if I go as blm I expect to kill a tonne of stuff at once and when its one pull at a time I will just afk the fights cus seriously I can kill 20 mobs in roughly the same time as killing a couple trash packs.. if there grouped up well...


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as for the whole pulling extra trash onto the tank and expecting the tank to gab it... that is not cool.. the tank pulled what they thought they or the group was capable off not what you think, and if the tank cant hold the hate then why pull more.>?


I use to not mind so much when people would do this on me cus I know I can handle it but now if that happens im gonna let that person die then pick up trash to stop them from maiming everyone else. even if that's the healer.... << this is in response to pulled on purpose not accidental pulls, its easy to tell the difference

WAR is a more complex job than PLD by virtue of its mitigation being in part active, and having an actual resource to think about (Wrath stacks).
PLD has no short-term planning to do. All of PLD's planning comes from when to pop their CDs.

Both jobs are strong. But PLD is more noob-friendly.

although I kinda agree with you here I don't think either tank role is really newb friendly at 50... before that your learning the ropes so who cares. post that you better know how to handle yourself and know the instances because otherwise dps and heals are going to be pulling from you constantly.

war's have to know there skills to be able to fully mitigate properly however even they have insta cd's that help out just as much as pld has them.

I don't play war much past getting it to 50 but I know I can pick it up and play it in dungeons and hold the hate ok but not as well as I can on pld since ive used that since day one. the biggest reason I know this is because I know the instances and skills on pld where as im not solid on skill knowledge and how they work on war but once there learned its no harder to play war

Speed pulls - preform your party.
Slow pulls - DF

End of discussion LOL

so not true, I speed run df all the time but based of my judgement of the group and how they handle the first pull. also if I run expert roulette I totally expect that dungeon to go as quickly as it can because its for experts << games wording not mine.

[Faelandaea]

so not true, I speed run df all the time but based of my judgement of the group and how they handle the first pull. also if I run expert roulette I totally expect that dungeon to go as quickly as it can because its for experts << games wording not mine.

The key phrase there is that you base it off the first pull. This makes you a good tank that makes a judgement call at the beginning.

The tank and the healer make the call (it's an equal call between how comfortable the healer is with healing and the tank is with taking the heat). What I was referring to in my post is that DF is not obligatory at all for a speed run. No one can force a tank or healer to speed run in DF, period. DPS do not have a say so, because they are not effected by the speed of the pull - all they have to do is kill everything they need to kill. So the key is to communicate between tank and healer and at least ask, "Hey are you comfortable with bigger pulls or a speed run?"

I am confident in my healing. If the tank takes a moment to ask me at the beginning, "hey can you heal bigger pulls?", not only will my answer be "Yes, let's go for it." but if the run goes without a hitch on his part that tank will DEFINITELY get a commendation from me at the end for communication, because communication is THE most important part of ANY teamwork in any MMO game.

I agree with your view on experts being meant for better players, but as healer I still very much appreciate if the tank at least clarifies how comfortable I am with the healing end before going nuts with a pull. I had a tank assume on an Ex roulette that we would carry him or something, I guess, because the moment we spawned in, even before I had a chance to cast protect, he took off without us and started pulling everything . . . and he died . . . very quickly. To add insult to injury, the guy had like 5000 HP . . . I didn't get a chance to examine him to see what gear he was wearing, but it must not have been at all up to par with Expert dungeons. I'd have examined him, but the DPS vote kicked him before I could even say "WTF?" Hehe. Now, as a cardinal rule, if a tank takes off right as we pop in and does not wait for his buffs, I just grab some popcorn and watch what happens. Most tanks I know will actually refuse to move until they have protect on. And this is a GOOD thing.

Now, on another end of a stick, if the healer or tank says that they are not comfy with speed pulls, never assume this means go total noob and pull only a couple mobs at a time. Again, communicate. There have been times where I was uncomfortable with a tank's gear and I said "Let's do a moderate pull first and see how we do, then go from there." You'd be surprised how well judgement calls can be made with good communication. And during this process I have on more than one occasion had tanks surprise me by having sup-par gear but great gameplay, using their skills and cool-downs in such a way that they were able to do the speed pulls successfully and efficiently.

[KisaiTenshi]

The key phrase there is that you base it off the first pull. This makes you a good tank that makes a judgement call at the beginning.

The tank and the healer make the call (it's an equal call between how comfortable the healer is with healing and the tank is with taking the heat). What I was referring to in my post is that DF is not obligatory at all for a speed run. No one can force a tank or healer to speed run in DF, period.

This pretty much. How often does the Tank ask? 1 in about 30 DF runs. I find it's a bit more fun to see if I can keep up with the Tank if they overpull, but that's very-dependent on what DPS are in the party. Two BLM, go for it.


As a healer, the "safe" pull is around 6 mobs/1 tank, the average dungeon is arranged in groups of 3, so pulling the two closest groups is usually safe and within the capability of a good healer with any DPS player configuration, even in low level dungeons. The game mechanics of the 4-man dungeons still assume you will tackle mobs one at a time, and sleep mobs when possible (though I haven't seen anyone use it properly in forever)

[Sousoulsu]

although I kinda agree with you here I don't think either tank role is really newb friendly at 50... before that your learning the ropes so who cares. post that you better know how to handle yourself and know the instances because otherwise dps and heals are going to be pulling from you constantly.

war's have to know there skills to be able to fully mitigate properly however even they have insta cd's that help out just as much as pld has them.

I don't play war much past getting it to 50 but I know I can pick it up and play it in dungeons and hold the hate ok but not as well as I can on pld since ive used that since day one. the biggest reason I know this is because I know the instances and skills on pld where as im not solid on skill knowledge and how they work on war but once there learned its no harder to play war

I think you overstate the complexity of tanking by a fair amount.

Both PLDs and WARs should not have a problem maintaining aggro. Flash/Overpower 3x and you're guarenteed to have aggro unless the DPS vastly outgear you.

The difficulty in WAR comes in appropriately keeping Maim/Storm's up, not overspending your TP, and using your Infuriate on the right moves in preparation for incoming damage.
PLD is very much passive in its mitigation, and only has 1 combo, and no buffs to maintain. Reactively using Shield Swipe does not really account for much skill, unless it's used on a mob at the right time to stop a weaponskill or something. Using Cover is pretty much a "Use on the WHM or BLM" thing, too.

PLD and WAR both have differing skillsets, but WAR is more complicated to play than PLD in measurable ways.

[Galgarion]

Both PLDs and WARs should not have a problem maintaining aggro. Flash/Overpower 3x and you're guaranteed to have aggro unless the DPS vastly outgear you.

That's actually a pretty big caveat. Unless a fresh 50 tank can no-life his way to a soldierly set in a week, he's guaranteed a month or so of not having any fun at all.

[Spoekes]

That's actually a pretty big caveat. Unless a fresh 50 tank can no-life his way to a soldierly set in a week, he's guaranteed a month or so of not having any fun at all.

Maybe or not.
Either way he will have this problem with any pull size.
On the topic of pull size, one might argue that smaller pulls favor focus damage, which might not make it easier for the tank than AoE Aggro.

[chidarake]

I think you overstate the complexity of tanking by a fair amount.

Both PLDs and WARs should not have a problem maintaining aggro. Flash/Overpower 3x and you're guarenteed to have aggro unless the DPS vastly outgear you.

The difficulty in WAR comes in appropriately keeping Maim/Storm's up, not overspending your TP, and using your Infuriate on the right moves in preparation for incoming damage.
PLD is very much passive in its mitigation, and only has 1 combo, and no buffs to maintain. Reactively using Shield Swipe does not really account for much skill, unless it's used on a mob at the right time to stop a weaponskill or something. Using Cover is pretty much a "Use on the WHM or BLM" thing, too.

PLD and WAR both have differing skillsets, but WAR is more complicated to play than PLD in measurable ways.

I'm not over-stating anything.

at 50 you have all your skills and so yes you can hold agro against any class in the game, but a fresh 50 will in all likelihood lack the experience to effectively tank some of the content with people who have been running and know that content really well.

the knowledge a good tank needs is knowing that content and knowing their class and a fresh 50 doesn't know all that information yet. not saying they cant learn it quickly or even after there first run in a dungeon or instance but in all likelihood they will have some problems for awhile.

I doubt 3x flash or overpower would hold of a triple flare... or even holy spam without further enmity built up by the tank, actually I know it wont as ive pulled from many tanks with a triple flare buffed and un-buffed.

also as for pld having no dots, that is not true. for one pld's can use fracture from cross class, then there's the str down debuff from rage of halone and then there's circle of scorn, admittedly the only one you have to manage is fracture since the others take care of themselves for the most part.


in all tanking one mob at a time and going slowly will make tanking seem simple but when you start to help push the grp through content quickly not only to save time but for the fun of it then you'll find tanking isn't as simple as it seems. not that i'm saying is really hard or anything but it isn't quite as simple as your statement suggest.

Not really that big of a caveat. Only the weapon will affect enmity, so they just need 1 lucky ST run for a tome/sand and it's all good; whether the rest of the set is full weathered, full AF, or full dreadwyrm is entirely irrelevant for enmity purposes. Hardly takes a month of no life-ing to run ST. Flash doesn't scale with the weapon anyways, so overgearing is more of a problem for single-target. But for single target you get crazy enmity modifiers, so that's not a problem either unless he's trying to hold hate from an i130 MNK. So it's not really a problem unless the tank just isn't playing their class properly, in which case gear wouldn't help much.

although the weapon may be the biggest factor you can not ignore all the extra str from going from full af to 120-130 gear. that generates a fair bit of extra hate surely, not that ive looked into numbers