Why Speed Pulls?

[Talia_Hailwind]

SLOW AND STEADY WINS THE RACE!

[Kaiser-Ace]

Snip *3

Again I point out if you're relying on MY AoEs then you were screwed before you got there, This is not a matter of numbers it's a matter of practicality, I can use HT+RoT combo and Consistently hit more targets with more damage than DS. And something you are forgetting, prior to 2.4 DS was weaker than a Non-Comboed RoT which is why it fell out of rotation. And it still messes up my rotations as, even though it's not required for the combo, my chaos thrust combo still does extra damage from the rear.

If there are more than 4-5 mobs I don't trust Doom Spike to hit them all. Mobs don't just stand there, they move too. Now after the horde as been thinned and now that DS has been buffed it is now worth the 160 TP hit the last few mobs into the ground with now that they're heavily wounded.

I still don't think any of you "Number Worshipers" have actually put the time into understanding the job as I have as not only a dedicated Melee DPS but a Carrier Dragoon on top of it. There are some things you just can't learn by copying a rotation pattern. If it was all patterns and rotations then why would we even need parties to run dungeons at all? Just let us rent NPCs for places and never speak to each other. (I still remember how unfriendly 1.0 was just before it's ending.)

[RaizeGraymalkin]

On a related note for this discussion, the community has to stop saying "well the tank sets the pace of a dungeon." That is not true at all, and the more people continue to say it, the worse the playerbase becomes.

The PARTY sets the pace for every instance.

They say it because it's true. When I DPS the dungeon I follow their lead. If they go slow and steady I respect that and follow suit. If they wanna go guns blazing and pull everything I'm cool with that too. I'm not going to force anyone to do anything they don't want to. I'm certainly not gonna go pull additional enemies the Tank hasn't yet. That's just an asshat move, I've been seeing more of lately.

[RaizeGraymalkin]

When I'm able, as healer, I force the tank to speedpull by pulling the next pack while they're flashing the one pack they pulled.
They get mad but everyone else in the group seems relieved.

It's a general community consensus, which means people should purrobably get used to speedrunning, or take their own advice and form up "slowrun" parties :3c

Oh so you're one of those huh? Do that to me and I'll let the mob kill you. And no it's not a general consensus.

[Zedd702]

Oh so you're one of those huh? Do that to me and I'll let the mob kill you. And no it's not a general consensus.

Good thing she does not team with me when I tank, because she'd be the deadest healer you ever seen...

And on and on the subject of forming PF's, "Habitual" Speed Runner's have the same options as well, you can form a PF if you want it done in a certain time frame or deal with what team you get.

[Hiruke]

I really don't care if people don't want to pull like everything up to the boss in a single pull, but as annoyed as many of you folks are by that, many others are equally if not more annoyed by people who pull like 2 mobs at a time and call it a day. Like, Amdapor Keep (Hard). You really want to do that 2 mobs at a time, when you can easily pull far more with zero chance of any real danger? Maybe some people super enjoy fighting trash, but it's really not interesting. I suspect many people only do dungeons at all to get tomes, and just want to get it over with.

I prefer to do as few dungeons as possible, and get most of my tomes doing something else, but it's obvious that most people want to speed through it because they are running the dungeon many many times in a week and want it to be over asap.

[Kaiser-Ace]

The way I see it, the devs answer to this speed running plague was to make it so no matter how good your gear and strategy was, that there was only so much you could get to with out curb stomping a smaller group. Snow Cloak rooms you could pull maybe a few packs at once before you got to a gate that wouldn't open till they were all dead. As well as Satasha HM, Quran HM, and now as of AK HM Agrius, and WP HM it's become the norm. You speed runners had your fun curb stomping things in 5 minutes in 2.2 and 2.3 well now the devs have decided starting in 2.4 that they aren't going to let you do that any more. Adapt or go play WoW where they still allow pulling the whole dungeon at once.

[ThirdChild_ZKI]

I was once kicked from a dungeon for not using Regen on every party member.
is that a valid reason to hate anything aside from those particular misinformed people?

Go ahead and list your reasons to "hate" speedrunning.

Nope. I won't list them, but I will list why I won't:

1. It's none of your business.
2. I've said just about all I need to say on the matter in nearly every thread that's ever existed about it ever.
3. The aforementioned reason lies less with the speed running itself (which I've already mentioned I find boring - this contradicts #1, I'm aware) and more with the negative impact it's had/caused on the community in general.
4. I don't intend to debate with you as we're likely to not agree on the matter. Ever.
5. Plenty of the valid points already made are in line with my own reasons.
6. See #1, #2, and #5.

[Mykll]

Your lack of experience with speedfasts is showing.
Tanking a speedpull and tanking a single pull is different in the following ways:
1)Managing cooldowns is important
2)Knowing what cooldowns your healer has is important
3)Shield swiping certain mobs makes some otherwise impossible pulls possible
4)managing aggro during the pull is important to make sure your re-stoneskinning healer doesnt get hit
5)picking which targets to get rage of halone debuff up on is important
It is far more engaging to tank a speedpull.
There's more difference in speedrunning and single-pulling than "just do more of the same".

1. Tanks should be doing that anyway. Unless you just seriously over gear the dungeon then it doesn't matter. Speaking of which, does an ilvl 120-130 tank REALLY need to use cooldowns when speed running Brayflox HM with an equally geared healer and DPS? Yeah they have been ilvl synced to 110. What about CM? Not really for either. Why, because our gear is so great now. Which most would rather have ZERO level syncs at all, thus making us over gear that many MORE dungeons by a greater degree, thus needing to use exact cooldowns even less. Newer dungeons? So many gates can't really do a lot of mass pulls like before. Also in the newer dungeons, they hit harder, or have more various AOEs crowding you. What is that "lesser" geared tank of appropriate gear going to do on small pulls anyway? Use their cooldowns efficiently. As a tank you are already doing that, when gearing up, as being lower geared, you have to do that because you have less gear. And now that you are well geared, and do mass pulls, you are still doing that. More of the same.
2. You actually keep track of exactly when a healer will use a cooldown, know exactly when it fades, and exactly how many seconds until it can be used again, for all cooldowns for both a WHM and a SCH has, during the entire run? You question each and every healer what cross skills they use so you know exactly which cooldowns they have as well? You completely change how you pull if they Swiftcast Stoneskin II right before a pull, versus slow casting it, knowing they have that Swiftcast in their back pocket? If they already used Eye for an Eye or Virus?

3. Counting on RNG to make an impossible pull possible? So what about WARs?

4. Managing enmity on a pack means doing what exactly? Mainly using your area-agro abilities MORE than on lesser pulls. 3 mobs, 5, 10. You just have less room to play around and generally have to use your AOE skills more often, the more you grab. 3 mobs you can keep rotating targets throughout your rotations. 10? Not going to be hitting all 10 throughout a rotation, that's the AOE skill doing that.

5. That sounds like 1-2-3 things. And if your BLM gets some lucky crits in a row, or your melee DPS going hard on different targets, you can less afford to do your combos, because you will do more of your area enmity abilities. Or have to do your Flashes in between each combo step, greatly slowing down when you CAN get that Halone debuff. Most packs of multi-mobs are very similar. Without doing mass AOE spamming, you can really only have that debuff on 2 mobs. The more you have to pause your combo rotations to keep Flashing, you may only be able to keep that debuff on one thing. So, out of a pack of 10 or so mobs, it is vitally important that ONE of them has that debuff? It seems better that you finish the combo to really nail down enmity on something, more than lowing the STR on something by 10%. And what about WAR? You have to use 3 cooldowns to put a debuff on a target, and ALL 3 of those skills have no enmity bonus to them, not like Halone. It may be a bit before you can ill afford to use 3 skills that have zero extra enmity tied to them. Meanwhile that one thing that is so vital to slightly debuff is beating on you full force. And on a big pull of 10, it is REALLY going to make a difference when only ONE is debuffed on a pack of 10?

I get it that it is not EXACTLY more of the same. You pull a single thing, you not going to blow through a bunch of cooldowns and keep flashing. You might never flash, or just once initially. Pack of 10, you going to flash a lot more. I get that. But it is still more of the same. Especially when you get past about 4 mobs. You will be doing almost the exact same thing on a pack of 4, versus 10. More AOE enmity skills, more cooldowns, etc.

Not trying to argue, I just don't see some of these points. Each person has their own idea of fun, and that is what this all boils down to. Both sides largely wants the player base to play where each individual find a run enjoyable. Somewhere in the middle the two sides meet and this friction occurs.

Like you mentioned this:

I just hate it when poetics geared tanks do single or double pulls. It's extremely boring.

To correct that, you find it extremely boring when ANY tank does a single or double pull. Why would it be boring for a Poetic geared tank to do that, and not boring for a little over the minimum requirement tank to do that, where you may additionally have to hold back damage from fear of pulling enmity? Is it not also boring when you feel like you are forced to continuously re-hash "old" content? You just want it done and over with as quick as possible, because going that that dungeon YET AGAIN is not fun for YOU. Yet you do it for whatever reward you are aiming to get.

[Sousoulsu]

[Snap]

I posted numbers as a matter of principal. Realistically, a DRG in dungeon content is a hinderance. However, making lemons out of lemonade is what DF is all about.

And something you are forgetting, prior to 2.4 DS was weaker than a Non-Comboed RoT which is why it fell out of rotation. And it still messes up my rotations as, even though it's not required for the combo, my chaos thrust combo still does extra damage from the rear.

You are, to put it bluntly and simply, wrong. It is irrelevant if a move fell out of rotation: It was buffed, and is now optimal damage per GCD/TP cost - and CT doing more damage from the rear has no bearing on AoE. It is entirely irrelevant to the subject. I have no idea why you would bring it up, unless you don't understand that Doom Spike's potency is multiplied by a number equal to the number of enemies it hits.

If you have trouble hitting the optimal amount of mobs with Doom Spike, that is your failing as a player. I do not "main" DRG. I play it occasionally though, and I have no trouble with hitting the amount of mobs that would make DS worth using over RoT.
Of course, it relies on situational awareness. On some pulls it is not possible to optimally DS, and good DRGs will know the times when to DS and when to RoT. But I have not found it problematic on most big pulls to do the method I mathed out as superior.

You seem to think of yourself as an exceptional player, but from what I've seen you post, the most I can really say is that you are a mediocre Dragoon.
You tout yourself as a "Carrier DRG", but all you're really doing by saying that is proving how meaningless that self-stated title can be.