Why Speed Pulls?

[Brill_]

Maybe it would be better if people were to describe why they are uncomfortable with speedfasting. I am very interested in their reasoning; since none has been purrovided as far as I can see.

It's not that I am uncomfortable, it's just that 50% of the time there is a wipe. When you wipe, you lose the time savings you would've gained by doing big pulls. Slow and steady wins the race.

Even if we don't wipe, you typically just shaving 5-7 minutes off the run. If being in a dungeon for additional 5 is that painful, I'd have to ask why you are even playing the game if you hate that much?

If the time difference between a speed run and normal run was say a 20 minute run vs a 60 minute run, I'd completely agree, but it's not. The difference is negligible.

[Alistaire]

Lets see.
Mass pulls:

Tank Spamming Flash/Overpower
Heal Spamming Cure/CureII
Dps spamming 1-2 kind of AOE

Medium/Small Pulls

Tank being able to use proper Rotations and Aoe
Heal being able to use SS/Adlo as dmg prevention while DPS-ing
Dps using proper Rotations and/or Aoe

EXPLAIN TO ME, how the heck Mass pulls are THE way to go if you do not want a boring playstyle?

Except that DPS "proper rotation" is the same whether it's 3 mobs or 17; aoe moves are more damage. Their only problem is other than BLM they're more resource-intensive.

And the healer should be doing at least a couple holy casts each pull; it's as defensive a maneuver as an offensive one.

So the only difference is either you're doing it like I just said and it's more repetitive; or you're doing it the way you say which just means you have DPS that are bad. And still take longer to do the run either way.

So is that a simple enough explanation for you?

[Amelia_Pond_Behemoth]

As a tank, I don't feel comfortable with large pulls. Yet, I enjoy quicker dungeons. My solution has been to take a break and go as BLM and contribute to faster pulls. When I get sick of that I'll go back to tanking dungeons.

[Mykll]

I am not one that is comfy with speed pulling as a tank. Or being the very talented Healer that does a lot of DPS. I am just not. But I will try to do some on both sides. But, I do see both sides of this argument.

Slow pullers say (yes, exceptions):
I play the way that is comfy to me so that I enjoy it.
Speed runners can use PF.

Speed runners say (yes, exceptions):
I play the way that is comfy to me so that I enjoy it.
Non-Speed runners can use PF.

Umm, yeah...

As a tank, it is boring to hit my area-aggro tool a couple times and 1-2-3 things until they die in single pulls.

What some of the speed runners are saying is that it is boring to pull single groups. Just like you say here. What some of the non-speed runners are saying, and I will use mostly your words, my words included in BOLD:

As a tank, it is boring to hit my area-aggro tool a couple more times and 1-2-3 things until they die in single multi- pulls.

Seems like as the tank, you are doing the exact same thing.

[Sousoulsu]

It's not that I am uncomfortable, it's just that 50% of the time there is a wipe. When you wipe, you lose the time savings you would've gained by doing big pulls. Slow and steady wins the race.

Even if we don't wipe, you typically just shaving 5-7 minutes off the run. If being in a dungeon for additional 5 is that painful, I'd have to ask why you are even playing the game if you hate that much?

If the time difference between a speed run and normal run was say a 20 minute run vs a 60 minute run, I'd completely agree, but it's not. The difference is negligible.

When you have to do 10 average dungeons for a zodiac weapon drop, it shaves off a lot of time.

Honestly, the "50% of the time it's a wipe" thing makes me think you're not capable or comfortable with the pulls. Even half of a speedpull is fine. I just hate it when poetics geared tanks do single or double pulls. It's extremely boring.
I actually can't remember the last time I failed a speedpull with a PUG while I was healing or tanking.

What some of the speed runners are saying is that it is boring to pull single groups. Just like you say here. What some of the non-speed runners are saying, and I will use mostly your words, my words included in BOLD:
As a tank, it is boring to hit my area-aggro tool a couple more times and 1-2-3 things until they die in single multi- pulls.
Seems like as the tank, you are doing the exact same thing.

Your lack of experience with speedfasts is showing.
Tanking a speedpull and tanking a single pull is different in the following ways:
1)Managing cooldowns is important
2)Knowing what cooldowns your healer has is important
3)Shield swiping certain mobs makes some otherwise impossible pulls possible
4)managing aggro during the pull is important to make sure your re-stoneskinning healer doesnt get hit
5)picking which targets to get rage of halone debuff up on is important

It is far more engaging to tank a speedpull.
There's more difference in speedrunning and single-pulling than "just do more of the same".

[Xenosan]

Some dungeons are designed to prevent long pulls.. Yet people ask me to "pull to first boss" in snowcloak (lol?)

I long pull depending on the party setup and how well DPS perform AOE large groups of mobs.

If I see the DRG use that fkn Ring of Thorns, then nope - no more long pulls cuz it's not going to go any faster XD

[Kaiser-Ace]

If I see the DRG use that fkn Ring of Thorns, then nope - no more long pulls cuz it's not going to go any faster XD

Uh, I main Drg thank you. And Heavy Thrust + Ring of Thorns is more effective AoE than Doom Spike regardless of numbers. I can guarantee that when I use Ring of Thorns to hit 20 mobs hording the tank that I'll hit all 20 of them in one move with RoT. Doom Spike on the other hand is a streight LoS AoE that usually MISSES no less than half the horde because it only fires in a small, narrow line. RoTs actually hits a larger radius of targets and even allows motion to keep moving like should, say, an AoE circle spawn right as we launch the attack. The only attack that has numbers and AoE radius at the same time is Dragonfire Dive and it's cool down makes it more of a one trick pony. Tank Pulls Horde -> Dragonfire Dive the pack from rear line, start HT+RoT combo till the horde is dead.

It amazes me how "Numbers" seem to take place over strategy. If this was an FPS it wouldn't matter how many .50 caliber rounds I use if I don't hit any thing. Like wise that extra... What is it now 40 points, of DPS that DS does vs RoT isn't worth it If I miss half the targets, or worse all of them because "Oh Gods!! I'm wounded and the Healer just got agro!! PANIK!!!" and the tank starts running around the place (Usually chasing the healer who dies 10s later after the mobs Gank him). RoTs was our AoE rotation WAY before the DS buff in 2.4. They actually buffed DS because WE DIDN'T USE IT.

[Rasylia]

Except that DPS "proper rotation" is the same whether it's 3 mobs or 17; aoe moves are more damage. Their only problem is other than BLM they're more resource-intensive.

And the healer should be doing at least a couple holy casts each pull; it's as defensive a maneuver as an offensive one.

So the only difference is either you're doing it like I just said and it's more repetitive; or you're doing it the way you say which just means you have DPS that are bad. And still take longer to do the run either way.

So is that a simple enough explanation for you?

Nope its not, because its completely untrue.
With "proper Rotation" i was talking about a single target rotation which is faster burning down one mob out of 3 than it would be using Aoe skills on those 3.
The healer can go nearly full dpsmode when the tank is not masspulling.
(f.e. if im whm i do not use a single heal in hardmode dungeons. I dps the full dungeon and only use Stoneskin to keep tank alive. -> he not loosing hp -> i can stick to Doing dps and dont have to switch to turn off cleric stance)

Also, its funny that you start doing the same thing every elitist scumbag does....
"Oh you dont want to do it as i say? Either your tank, your heal, or your dps suck"

Last but not least, "longer" ? Bullshit. Depending on your team its faster if the heal is doing Dps with the grp, instead of needing to spam cure, and if its not, its only 1-2-3 minutes you are longer inside the dungeon.

[Xenosan]

... Heavy Thrust + Ring of Thorns is more effective AoE than Doom Spike regardless of numbers...

My approach would be Bfb + life surge > Dragonfire, internal release > doom spike till bfb wears off or maybe 9 sec to land a thrust combo, continue rotation single target rotation on targets

Long animation.

If no one's said anything to you then rock n roll. At least consider RoT has a ridiculously long animation time, and does absolutely dismal damage without Bfb + crit.

And 20 mobs? How many dungeons go up to 20? Brayflops hm? most you ever get is maybe 12 in the new dungeons. Regardless your AOE output is still a fraction of what brd or blm is dishing out, single target the highest threat mob to your tank after your CDs are burned to free up your whm to AOE. Throw some stuns, it'll take 4 or 5 RoTs to equal one Holy. In the amount of time you pull of 5 RoTs whm would be at 3 holy spells, I'm just don't see it.

[ThirdChild_ZKI]

Largely, what I continue to hear here is "speed pull because it's boring if you don't" and "we have to run it so much for our relic so it gets old and we just want to be done with it quickly".

First off, if you're sick of spamming a dungeon for your relic, that's YOUR fault, not the dungeon. There's plenty else to do in the game, and if you don't get your relic today, it's not the end of the world. I don't have a single relic, don't want one, and I hold absolutely no interest in ever changing that. . . But I do enjoy dungeons. You know, in moderation. Along with everything else.

That aside, alright SE, sounds like you've been challenged - How do you make these "boring" dungeons more interesting?

Strength in numbers - buff enemies if allowed to gather in larger numbers. Rancor-style buffs.
Potent abilities that pose a threat - Think Morbols, Harriers that try to turn into Aevis, permanent buffs that truly change strategy if not stunned/silenced, Final Stings.
Enrages - Would promote a sense of urgency without necessarily encouraging speedrun tactics. Not just for bosses either.
EvE - Enemy feeding/prey mechanics. Not quite "Super Slug" levels, but enough to encourage isolation/mitigation tactics. See Halicarnassus in Haukke HM.
Native DoTs - Persistent, slow-tick Bleeding/Frostbite/Windburn style debuffs throughout the dungeon. Obviously allow some safe areas for the inevitable afks.
Platforming - At least break the monotony a bit. Allagan teleporters/bounce pads are fun. Multiple paths (a la last area of Hulbreaker) would at least make for slightly different experience each time.
Heal to damage/heal to mitigate - remember healing Zombified enemies in older FF titles? Also, see final boss of Wanderer's Palace HM.
DPS/No DPS to mitigate Skills - See Thornmarch's BLMmog, Sabotender Emperatriz, Agrippa the Mighty.

Lastly, Hard/Expert modifiers. Choose Hard, difficulty would be a decent enough challenge, rewards/tomes would be par. Expert would be tougher, rewards would be greater. Let's make these Expert dungeons require some expertise.