Why Speed Pulls?

[Sousoulsu]

Its probably safe to say that any discussion with Sousoulso is kind of useless, because .... well firstly he only knows numbers, secondly he only takes his own opinion as relevant and lastely he ignores most things we say.



YES THERE IS. IT DOES NOT MATTER WHAT MY GEAR IS - IF I DONT WANT TO YOU HAVE NO RIGHT TO FORCE ME.
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Get that in your mind.

I'm doing everything but ignoring what people say. I am responding to it point by point. This is what a discussion is. I'd like to see people's opinions and assertions backed up with reasoning.

I do not "only know numbers', though. I also know that situation awareness is what makes a player good. You should be able to tell if the current situation requires you to use RoT or DS. Numbers can not tell you that. They are just useful to math out if an ability is worth using in a given situation.

Everyone has a different reason.
Everyone likes to do it another way.
Noone has the right to force anyone to play the way he likes.

True. But I would like to see people's reasonings for why they think a certain way. They get upset with me when I ask them to quantify their playstyle.
I like speedrunning because it is challenging light-party content, and I like small groups over large, and there is no content currently in the game that is a genuine challenge for light parties outside of speedrunning.
^Fully quantified opinion. It is an opinion, but I quantify it with understandable reasoning.

/over and out. Discussing stuff with this guy is complete waste of time. For hi m there is no indivuduality, only numbers, his own opinion and how much time he can win by speedrunning everything.

You only think discussing anything with me is a waste of time because you don't like the way in which I quantify things.
Amewsing :3

[Rasylia]

You only think discussing anything with me is a waste of time because you don't like the way in which I quantify things.
Amewsing :3

Completely wrong. I dont discuss anything with you anymore because you ignore what people WANT.
They do not WANT to speedrun - you start pulling. They dont WANT to masspull - you ignore it and pull more.

You try to force your playstyle onto other people. And THAT is why im saying you are hopeless.

[Sousoulsu]

Completely wrong. I dont discuss anything with you anymore because you ignore what people WANT.
They do not WANT to speedrun - you start pulling. They dont WANT to masspull - you ignore it and pull more.

You try to force your playstyle onto other people. And THAT is why im saying you are hopeless.

Do you know what happens when I do that?
The dungeon run goes faster, and the other players comem me.
I am never overtly impolite. I always say that I am having no trouble healing and that they can safely pull more. When they do not, I "accidentally" aggro another pack. And I heal through it. And the group's AoE is more potent.

If it is the general consensus of the group aside from who is tanking, why should the tank get to decide?
They should not. 3 to 1 wins in the "Playstyle-forcing" department. If they do not want to speedrun, they should queue with a DF group :3c

if nyew really donyot want to discuss anyaathing with mew anyaameowre, nyew need simply cease nyewr replying! m^^m

[Rasylia]

If it is the general consensus of the group aside from who is tanking, why should the tank get to decide?
They should not. 3 to 1 wins in the "Playstyle-forcing" department. If they do not want to speedrun, they should queue with a DF group

See? You dont get it. If you want to speedrun, go with a full df group.
It goes both ways. Just because YOU WANT TO you think EVERYONE has to adapt to you.

If an Ilvl 130 Tank sais "i dont want to speedrun" you say "you are overgeared, its a waste"
All you can respond to is "more effiicent" "waste of time" "i want to" "if they dont like it, make a full group"

Everyone has to adapt to your playstyle. But hey, you are right. I will stop responding now. Talking to you is like telling a Ilvl 130 Elitistic scumbag that not evey casual is bad and he is not "pro" just cause he has killed T13. Oh wait.

[Its_Elodie]

I agree OP, it seems like most of the playerbase is out to zerg all content as fast as possible. I don't tank a lot of the content anymore unless its an FC group or with friends because I got tired of the rush, rush, rush attitude a looooong time ago. If the zergfest is agreed upon at the beginning of the dungeon between all of its members its kosher. Tanks call the speed of the dungeon since they have the defensive capabilities and gear to do so. If that really bothers people when they que up and consistently don't like the pace people are generally running it as, feel free to roll your own tank and then you can call the shots. We wait long ques as dps classes and to a lesser extent healing classes for a tank to simply show up in our que. Do you like that wait? Keeping people on a constant time clock (who don't want to be) when they are logged on a game like they are at work obviously isn't fun for everyone (hence this thread). ...and people wonder why there's a tank shortage.

[Kaiser-Ace]

YES THERE IS. IT DOES NOT MATTER WHAT MY GEAR IS - IF I DONT WANT TO YOU HAVE NO RIGHT TO FORCE ME.
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Get that in your mind.

Ya know Rasylia, I'm with you on this one. Sousoulsu is clearly an Elitist Troll. And that's an abomination even amongst other Elitists and Trolls. I doesn't matter what we say they have a spoiled and entitled mentality and are incapable of accepting the FACT that other viewpoints exist let alone understand them. So I'll let you give some constructive (AKA Valid) caresizim on my DPS.

Oh and Sousoulsu, it DOES matter if it fell out of rotation. The fact you don't know that means you should NEVER equip a DPS weapon again. Rotations are what govern our combos so if something isn't in the rotation we have to make a new one to use it.

Now as for my skills, I do what I like and have more than once out lasted a Tank that bit off more than they can chew. That isn't a gear thing it's a skill thing.

My normal rotation:
Open with Spin Dive/Dragon Dive --> start Chaos Thrust Combo on Single Target/Boss or HT+RoT combo for mass trash --> Use personal DoT speed combo phlebotomize -> Leg Sweep -> Fracture-> Jump/dive--> Repeat from step 2 while using buffs and cool downs as necessary.

My rotation is completely governed by situation. I've added Doom Spike to step two for any time the add count is 2-4 or less and I use the Full Thrust combo when I see fit. And I use Elusive Jump for high powered AoEs that I can't get out of in time due to animation lock but I try not to rely on it.

[Sousoulsu]

snip

I think what you're failing to understand is that DS fell out of rotation because it was weak. When it got buffed, it was no longer weak - and should be used in the right circumstance. It's fairly rare that you can't hit all the mobs with DS. Try experimenting with it. You may be surprised.

"Doing what you like" works just fine, but if you want to be optimal you do what is mathematically superior, in terms of potency and targets-hit. DS is unarguably better than RoT, and the circumstances where you cannot hit all the enemies if you position yourself properly are fairly rare.

You are probably a fine player. But the difference between a fine player and a good player is "doing what you like" and "doing what is optimal".

[Mykll]

I'll add something else. Because nobody asked and nobody really cares. But you get it anyway!

Go back before WoW, and there was EQ. I played mainly Monk, and Enchanter, and Bard. I was an expert puller, an expert crowd controller. I guess I miss that technical / finesse side of things, rather than the "Hulk AOE SMASH!"

I played a healer in WoW, a LOT. First game I played a true healer. In FF, I of course played healer again, a LOT. Even though they are different games, I healed a LOT of tanks. I paid attention to what they did good, what they did bad, how they pulled, where they stood, all that. So when I finally decided to try a tank for real here, with a lot of history I have seen what the really good tanks have done and not done.

Also, FF is the first game I have been able to play a tank really. A real tank, not a pet class tank found in many games. I couldn't stand it before, for a number of reasons. So I tend to be more of the former technical side of things, rather than the now AOE smash optimum button pressing side of things.

It's fairly rare that you can't hit all the mobs with DS.

I figured out how to pull certain groups of mobs where if you pull it just right, they actually form a straight line in front of you. I do that (try to, nothing is 100%) if there is a DRG or MNK (yeah one attack on long cool down) in the group. I have no idea if DS is good or bad. Don't have a clue and pressing buttons according to a spreadsheet is no fun for me. BUT, if I can line them up in a line, instead of them being in a circle and all over the place, I do, to give them the option of using it or not.

[Kaiser-Ace]

snip

Now this is an interesting development. We're getting somewhere now.

So you HAVE noticed why DS needs to be reworked into the rotation. And You're right, if the situation is right one should always take an opportunity to use a more powerful skill.

Rotations are patterns that we follow to keep our combos going. Weather it be Speed Combos, Chain Casting (healer/mage rotations), or Endless Buff (A Tank cool down rotation to keep at least one buff up at all times), there are patterns we follow and get use too. When 3.0 comes out and the lvl cap is raised to 60, we're all going to have to change our rotations a bit to add in the new skills in the best combination.

I think as far as the Dragoon issue goes we've come to an understanding. And don't get me wrong, I still claim to be pretty good because I am, but there is a lot of improvement that I could make as there is every one. Improvement is always achievable because we're always learning how to handle things better. I learned that as a Dragoon my animation locks actually make paralysis a near moot point because by the time I freeze my animation lock has got me any way. And my armor is high enough to take a few hits and live. But keeping my stats properly in balance is something I always have to work on so I do.

Nothing is as cut and dry in practice as it is on paper but it's how we adapt and still win that makes the line between good players and bad. You can be ilvl 130 with full dread wyrm gear + weapon, but if you can't work with a "Non-Optimal Set Up" then your T13 clear means nothing, how ever even a team full of i80 noobs could be powered through by a t13 vet who knew how to work with what they had even if that meant mixing it up from the "Preferred Method" to turn an absolute crap fest into an epic win.

[Sousoulsu]

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Our sentiments are the same.
You just did not like the way I voiced them before.

Math is how you find out what ability is worth using, and when. It shouldn't be denounced, neither should it be used as a substitute for player skill. A good player uses both.