Why Speed Pulls?

[Amelia_Pond_Behemoth]

As a tank, I don't feel comfortable with large pulls. Yet, I enjoy quicker dungeons. My solution has been to take a break and go as BLM and contribute to faster pulls. When I get sick of that I'll go back to tanking dungeons.

[Xenosan]

Some dungeons are designed to prevent long pulls.. Yet people ask me to "pull to first boss" in snowcloak (lol?)

I long pull depending on the party setup and how well DPS perform AOE large groups of mobs.

If I see the DRG use that fkn Ring of Thorns, then nope - no more long pulls cuz it's not going to go any faster XD

[Kaiser-Ace]

If I see the DRG use that fkn Ring of Thorns, then nope - no more long pulls cuz it's not going to go any faster XD

Uh, I main Drg thank you. And Heavy Thrust + Ring of Thorns is more effective AoE than Doom Spike regardless of numbers. I can guarantee that when I use Ring of Thorns to hit 20 mobs hording the tank that I'll hit all 20 of them in one move with RoT. Doom Spike on the other hand is a streight LoS AoE that usually MISSES no less than half the horde because it only fires in a small, narrow line. RoTs actually hits a larger radius of targets and even allows motion to keep moving like should, say, an AoE circle spawn right as we launch the attack. The only attack that has numbers and AoE radius at the same time is Dragonfire Dive and it's cool down makes it more of a one trick pony. Tank Pulls Horde -> Dragonfire Dive the pack from rear line, start HT+RoT combo till the horde is dead.

It amazes me how "Numbers" seem to take place over strategy. If this was an FPS it wouldn't matter how many .50 caliber rounds I use if I don't hit any thing. Like wise that extra... What is it now 40 points, of DPS that DS does vs RoT isn't worth it If I miss half the targets, or worse all of them because "Oh Gods!! I'm wounded and the Healer just got agro!! PANIK!!!" and the tank starts running around the place (Usually chasing the healer who dies 10s later after the mobs Gank him). RoTs was our AoE rotation WAY before the DS buff in 2.4. They actually buffed DS because WE DIDN'T USE IT.

[Xenosan]

... Heavy Thrust + Ring of Thorns is more effective AoE than Doom Spike regardless of numbers...

My approach would be Bfb + life surge > Dragonfire, internal release > doom spike till bfb wears off or maybe 9 sec to land a thrust combo, continue rotation single target rotation on targets

Long animation.

If no one's said anything to you then rock n roll. At least consider RoT has a ridiculously long animation time, and does absolutely dismal damage without Bfb + crit.

And 20 mobs? How many dungeons go up to 20? Brayflops hm? most you ever get is maybe 12 in the new dungeons. Regardless your AOE output is still a fraction of what brd or blm is dishing out, single target the highest threat mob to your tank after your CDs are burned to free up your whm to AOE. Throw some stuns, it'll take 4 or 5 RoTs to equal one Holy. In the amount of time you pull of 5 RoTs whm would be at 3 holy spells, I'm just don't see it.

[Kaiser-Ace]

Regardless your AOE output is still a fraction of what brd or blm is dishing out, single target the highest threat mob to your tank after your CDs are burned to free up your whm to AOE. Throw some stuns, it'll take 4 or 5 RoTs to equal one Holy. In the amount of time you pull of 5 RoTs whm would be at 3 holy spells, I'm just don't see it.

THAT right there is my my problem with your thinking. Heavy thrust is a single target attack. Locate highest priority target (Ochu, Malbor, Dragon ect, ect) and flank hit it with heavy thrust (All GOOD dragoons don't let their buffs stay off any longer than it takes them to charge up so that's invalid as most GOOD tanks use cool downs to not die but I've seen tanks die like Naked healers before cause they didn't) then use RoT to keep the heat on AND add a little damage to the others. Less damage that Black Mage and Bard? Well Duh, overpower and CoS don't do shit for DPS either compared to Flair/Fire 3 and Bard's AoE arsenal. But it always helps. The way I see it, if you're relying on a Dragoon's AoEs then you were screwed the minute you hit "Confirm" on the DF menu. Dragoons are high output Single target DPS with a few AoEs just to help out just like Black Mage is a high output Multi-target DPS with a few single targets so they help out better.

It seems to me that you've "Played" Dragoon but never actually took time to "learn" Dragoon. I can sit back and yell "Stupid tank! Hold your damn agro right!!" but if I haven't played as a tank then I have no idea that your War isn't using over power cause WARs burned up their TP really fast or that your PLD needs a few seconds to get his MP back after he flash spames to empty and cant use Riot Blade for having to use RoH combos to desperately hold hate off the mages.

[Sousoulsu]

It seems to me that you've "Played" Dragoon but never actually took time to "learn" Dragoon.

Doom Spike is 160 Potency.
Ring of Thorns is 100 potency; 150 if used after Heavy Thrust, and costs 40 less TP than Doom Spike.
The reason you think Doom Spike is bad is probably because you are not good at targeting the correct thing and using your positioning to hit as many as possible.
That is a fault of the player, not the ability.
________
For AoE pulls, you go
Heavy Thrust[blood4blood]-Ring of Thorns[internal release]-Doom Spike spam; invigorate when needed; more Doom Spike until you need to refresh Heavy Thrust; then Heavy Thrust-Ring of Thorns; of course weaving Dragonfire Dive in when IR and B4B are up.
Once you get down to 250TP, you should do single-target on the highest health enemy and single-target the rest down.
_______
Let's take the 10 target test again.
HT->RoT=1670 Potency
Doom Spike can be used 5-6 times before needing to refresh HT.
Your TP limits you to only using it a max of 10-11 times before you need to stop (DRG isn't the best AOE of course).
So let's say you do as many "reps" of HT-RoT-DS spam as you can until you hit 200-250 TP:
17670 potency on 10 mobs; casting Doom Spike 10 times; HT->RoT twice.

(continued)

[ThirdChild_ZKI]

Largely, what I continue to hear here is "speed pull because it's boring if you don't" and "we have to run it so much for our relic so it gets old and we just want to be done with it quickly".

First off, if you're sick of spamming a dungeon for your relic, that's YOUR fault, not the dungeon. There's plenty else to do in the game, and if you don't get your relic today, it's not the end of the world. I don't have a single relic, don't want one, and I hold absolutely no interest in ever changing that. . . But I do enjoy dungeons. You know, in moderation. Along with everything else.

That aside, alright SE, sounds like you've been challenged - How do you make these "boring" dungeons more interesting?

Strength in numbers - buff enemies if allowed to gather in larger numbers. Rancor-style buffs.
Potent abilities that pose a threat - Think Morbols, Harriers that try to turn into Aevis, permanent buffs that truly change strategy if not stunned/silenced, Final Stings.
Enrages - Would promote a sense of urgency without necessarily encouraging speedrun tactics. Not just for bosses either.
EvE - Enemy feeding/prey mechanics. Not quite "Super Slug" levels, but enough to encourage isolation/mitigation tactics. See Halicarnassus in Haukke HM.
Native DoTs - Persistent, slow-tick Bleeding/Frostbite/Windburn style debuffs throughout the dungeon. Obviously allow some safe areas for the inevitable afks.
Platforming - At least break the monotony a bit. Allagan teleporters/bounce pads are fun. Multiple paths (a la last area of Hulbreaker) would at least make for slightly different experience each time.
Heal to damage/heal to mitigate - remember healing Zombified enemies in older FF titles? Also, see final boss of Wanderer's Palace HM.
DPS/No DPS to mitigate Skills - See Thornmarch's BLMmog, Sabotender Emperatriz, Agrippa the Mighty.

Lastly, Hard/Expert modifiers. Choose Hard, difficulty would be a decent enough challenge, rewards/tomes would be par. Expert would be tougher, rewards would be greater. Let's make these Expert dungeons require some expertise.

[Ooshima]

What I can only say is

If everyone is decently geared and your team have 1 BLM, it is quite a complete waste not to pull one more pack. 2 packs aren't any different from 1 pack, any tank/healer meeting the dungeon entry requirements can handle that - fair. But be it 1 pack or 2 pack, your BLM will still be F3>F2>F2>F2>Flare anyways. Might as well right?

I am fine with both single pack pulls and pull the whole damn street, but when the tank does single pulls with a BLM in store... I don't know how to feel about that.

[Kaiser-Ace]

snip.

As a carrier DPS I love every one of those ideas. Please give me something that makes me actually think "Uh, if we don't do something about "X" soon were screwed." And to add the platforming/multiple path ideas, make legit hidden passage ways like loot rooms and short cuts that aren't just "oh look the tonberry opened the door". Maybe make mini objectives in the dungeon to unlock them like "Don't let "X" npc die" or hide little clues and hints in the dungeon that don't always lead to the same place. say the loot catch from last run is now a trap, perma poison debuff till you find the antidote, ambushed and locked in with paralysis Debuf till you escape,ect ect, or make something like a "Bonus Boss" that drops rare gear unique to the Dungeon and make none of it guaranteed. (A run from hell being nothing but trap/ambush rooms the whole dungeon)

[Sousoulsu]

6270 per 12 seconds from Aeros, equating to 18810 for 3 refreshes of Aero 2 (letting Aero drop after 8s not coutned; meaning I'm being very generous); plus 850 from 5 stones (2.5s cast time, maybe give one more): 1020 potency from stone 2 per 12 seconds
A combined 19830 potency from the WHM for a pull.; assuming everything is done flawlessly, and also not factoring in that you cant be casting stone II while you're refreshing aero II.

Let's do a speedpull now: Average mobs in a speedpull varies, but I'd say 10 is a nice round number.
Holy:200 Potency in an AoE.
Each cast of Holy (3s) does 2000 potency.
With proper use of Tank CDs, Benediction, I can usually get 6 Holies off the bat; maybe more or less, so let's say:
Then I spam cure, stabalize the tank, and do 4 more Holies.
20,000 Potency from 10 Holies.
And that is without Presence of Mind.


(Continued)