Time to address long queue times for low level players

[Ashkendor]

Why is the satisfaction of helping others insufficient reward? Don't get me wrong, I know that more material rewards will attract more players to given content. But even so, why is it that so few people see the value of the satisfaction gained from helping others?

Everyone has their reasons. My reason is because it's boring. I don't play this game to be bored. I can think of a thousand better ways to spend my time than to voluntarily go back to dungeons that I outgrew back during story quest progression. Don't get me wrong, I love teaching people things but I'd rather go into T9 with a completely fresh group and teach them the mechanics than run low level dungeons more often than I have to. I only go back to those dungeons when I'm required to either by a need for tomes, for progression (i.e. relic quests), or when FC mates/friends ask for someone to go with them. When I do end up queueing, it's as a tank or healer; that's more because I don't want to contribute to the already-atrocious DPS queues more than anything. I honestly can't think of a single person that I know that jumps into the low level roulette queue more than once a day for the tomes.

[Kosmos992k]

Because it's not fun. Low level roulette takes you down several pegs on your moveset list and it makes the dungeon run a boring experience that doesn't reward enough. People don't generally play online games to do chores for strangers they won't likely ever see again. Honestly, I'm not trying to be rude here, unless you go to low level roulettes multiple times a day every day with the sole purpose of helping to ease up the queues (you cant be queuing for the rewards at all), the question you're asking is a ridiculous one to ask to anyone.

Honestly I see the farming and grinding of speed runs as a chore, and people treat it like a job. As it happens, I do Q for multiple low level roulettes, and tick join in progress so I can help as may people as possible, when I have time to use DF/DR.

Because it's boring as hell. You're playing a dungeon you've seen too many times (even more so if you've done the leveling dance on more than once class) with a limited moveset. There's no variation in the dungeons implemented so far, neither in terms of layout nor objectives nor enemy lineup, that would provide replayability or challenge. On top of that there are very few rewards available in terms of Achievements or loot (which can't be sold for much gil to vendors, are often BoP and provide poor or no materia conversion rewards).

Well, your moveset is limited at whatever level you play, it's not like there is a huge variation in your rotations in high level content. Also, like Gardes before, you are focusing on material rewards. The satisfaction gained is not a material reward, it is a feeling I get from helping others. Not only that but there is a potential to make new friends, or prompt other players to helping the community. These are all intangible rewards, but the possibility of making new friends is something I would think most would find valuable. Perhaps I am naive to think this, but I was under the impression that was one of the fundamental aspects of playing an MMORPG? Have things changed that dramatically?

With regard to rewards, rewards validate our participation. Are people so tied up in the gear ladder that they find personal validation in what amounts to a material gain in the virtual world of Eorzea? Is there no sense of reward or validation from the intangible gains of making a friend in Eorzea and perhaps IRL also? I get that we all play for our own reasons as ashkendor says below, which is 100% fine and correct of course. I'm just surprised by how little regard the rewards of helping others receieve.

Everyone has their reasons. My reason is because it's boring. I don't play this game to be bored. I can think of a thousand better ways to spend my time than to voluntarily go back to dungeons that I outgrew back during story quest progression. Don't get me wrong, I love teaching people things but I'd rather go into T9 with a completely fresh group and teach them the mechanics than run low level dungeons more often than I have to. I only go back to those dungeons when I'm required to either by a need for tomes, for progression (i.e. relic quests), or when FC mates/friends ask for someone to go with them. When I do end up queueing, it's as a tank or healer; that's more because I don't want to contribute to the already-atrocious DPS queues more than anything. I honestly can't think of a single person that I know that jumps into the low level roulette queue more than once a day for the tomes.

Well, you don't know me, but I do Q multiple times for low level roulette, not for the tomes though, just to help. Kind of paying it forward for all those that helped me in the past.

With all of the content in this or any other MMORPG, if you run it multiple times, it's more or less the same thing over and over. Just as your skill rotations become memorized patters you can perform in your sleep. However, I thought (keyword 'thought') that the thing that makes all online games - including MMORPGs interesting is that we are playing with other people, not just the game's AI, and it's the presence of other people that adds the variety to content. Like in the low level dungeons you get players of all abilities, different classes, different gear and sometimes different play styles. Of course sometimes the other players are silent characters just grinding their tomes without a word to anyone - sometimes they might as well be NPCs or bots - sometimes they are bots. But it's the ones that are engaging and appreciative of the help, they add spice to the life in the game. It can also be challenging to help new players learn their class, or understand mechanics. Sure they are things we've seen many, many times, but that may not be the case for others. In which case we can teach and help.

Is there just no joy in that for anyone anymore?

[Gardes]

Is there just no joy in that for anyone anymore?

They find joy on their own terms. It's not like you're entirely selfless, you know? You're doing what you do to make yourself feel good, evidenced by saying you get satisfaction out of it. You're feeding your own need, regardless of what the avenue is. I'm not trying to offend here, I could argue that the issue you're lamenting is kinda...first world problems tier? Like, why not actually do something for a worthy cause in real life if you get satisfaction from being a samaritan?

[Kosmos992k]

They find joy on their own terms. It's not like you're entirely selfless, you know? You're doing what you do to make yourself feel good, evidenced by saying you get satisfaction out of it. You're feeding your own need, regardless of what the avenue is. I'm not trying to offend here, I could argue that the issue you're lamenting is kinda...first world problems tier? Like, why not actually do something for a worthy cause in real life if you get satisfaction from being a samaritan?

You can hardly argue "first world problems" in relation to playing a video game....LOL! I'm not trying to offend anyone either, I am just honestly surprised by how little regard the satisfaction of helping others gets compared to the completely ephemeral 'material' rewards in a video game.

[Gardes]

You can hardly argue "first world problems" in relation to playing a video game....LOL! I'm not trying to offend anyone either, I am just honestly surprised by how little regard the satisfaction of helping others gets compared to the completely ephemeral 'material' rewards in a video game.

Because I play video games to accomplish video game things. The good feeling I would get from doing what you do is a 'generic' feeling that I could get elsewhere much more efficiently and impact the person I'm helping much more. I can run out of my apartment right now and go buy food for a homeless person and get way more satisfaction in 10 minutes than I do from doing 3 low level roulettes just to help strangers get their daily exp bonus (that takes, what, 1 hour+?).

[Kosmos992k]

Because I play video games to accomplish video game things. The good feeling I would get from doing what you do is a 'generic' feeling that I could get elsewhere much more efficiently and impact the person I'm helping much more. I can run out of my apartment right now and go buy food for a homeless person and get way more satisfaction in 10 minutes than I do from doing 3 low level roulettes just to help strangers get their daily exp bonus (that takes, what, 1 hour+?).

I'm sure we all could, so why are we playing video games when we could be doing that? No, seriously, that counter argument is unanswerable since it is utterly outside the context of the discussion, and no one in their right mind would say that they could gain more satisfaction helping someone in a video game than helping someone IRL. I was talking about the comparative sense of reward generated by to alternate viewpoints and courses of conduct within the game. To be perfectly honest though, I feel like you're effectively belittling trying to be helpful with others in-game by casting it in contrast to helping people in real life - obviously helping people in the real world contrasts starkly against helping folks in a video game world.

I was simply asking why it seems that many people no longer value the intangible reward of satisfaction vs the in-game material reward.

[LineageRazor]

Is there just no joy in that for anyone anymore?

Everyone has things they want to accomplish in this game, and only a certain number of hours per day available to accomplish those things. If queueing up specifically to help newbies brings you joy, that is wonderful, and more power to you. Not everyone is a born mentor, though; for many, possibly most people tutoring newbies is a chore, and not fun at all. If they're not going to be rewarded for doing it, they won't bother.

SE has good, solid experience with this phenominon from FFXI. While there were good, helpful people in that game, as there are in this one, there's just not enough to meet the need. For the longest time, FFXI had NO rewards for completing certain instances once you had already completed them, and newer folks trying to put together a party to do them had a horrendous time of it. They might be able to cobble together two or three sympethetic souls after a few hours, but most such instances needed a full party of six for a good chance of successs. This game's reward system has worked MIRACLES, compared to the situation in FFXI. People gripe about 30-40 minute queue times, but I have very literally spent entire days trying and failing to put together a party in FFXI for an unrewarding instance.

Don't mistake this mercenary attitude as meaning people are bad, or don't care. Even folks who wouldn't be signing up for low-level instances without the promise of reward are usually friendly and helpful toward the newbies. There are bad apples in the batch as well, but it's not only mean-spirited to harrass newbies, but also badly impacts the efficiency of the run. They want to get the run DONE, and abusing the other players is not going to help in that goal. Harrassment happens, but it's much less frequent than a lot of forum posts would have you believe.

Is that what constitutes as speed running? I thought it's tanks pulling multi packs regardless of what the healer had in mind? There are dungeons that have mobs that are out of the regular path way. If I pull mobs pack by pack but not pull mobs that are optional it's considered speed running?

It is one part of speed running, and the part that is most often seen in lower level dungeons. For the most part, lack of aoe abilities and lack of overpowered high-level gear makes multi-pack pulling in low level instances unproductive. I was trying to address the problem as it exists for low level players. I'll bet a lot of people even in this forum went a long time before they ever saw both paths in the Thousand Maws, and many have probably NEVER explored the optional branch by the second Magitek Gate. Most likely, many have never read the messages posted on the dungeon walls there, either, even though they present some cool flavor text for the dungeon.

[Kosmos992k]

Everyone has things they want to accomplish in this game, and only a certain number of hours per day available to accomplish those things. *snip*

SE has good, solid experience with this phenominon from FFXI. While there were good, helpful people in that game, as there are in this one, there's just not enough to meet the need. *snip*This game's reward system has worked MIRACLES, compared to the situation in FFXI. People gripe about 30-40 minute queue times, but I have very literally spent entire days trying and failing to put together a party in FFXI for an unrewarding instance.

Don't mistake this mercenary attitude as meaning people are bad, or don't care. Even folks who wouldn't be signing up for low-level instances without the promise of reward are usually friendly and helpful toward the newbies. There are bad apples in the batch as well, but it's not only mean-spirited to harrass newbies, but also badly impacts the efficiency of the run.

Indeed, I understand how much worse it could be and that it's better because of the rewards, those rewards bring clear benefits. It's not so much the mercenary attitude, and of course wishing to be rewarded doesn't make anyone bad or good. I definitely agree about the bad apples, and forcing things in the low level dungeons is very counter productive as you say. I guess I just wish more people could apply a more utopian mindset where things like helping for the heck of it actually bring a sense of reward that is equal to that felt with a material gain. But, as you say, everyone has things that they want to accomplish and as Ashkendor said earlier, everyone has their reasons for playing as they do.

It is one part of speed running, and the part that is most often seen in lower level dungeons. For the most part, lack of aoe abilities and lack of overpowered high-level gear makes multi-pack pulling in low level instances unproductive. I was trying to address the problem as it exists for low level players. I'll bet a lot of people even in this forum went a long time before they ever saw both paths in the Thousand Maws, and many have probably NEVER explored the optional branch by the second Magitek Gate. Most likely, many have never read the messages posted on the dungeon walls there, either, even though they present some cool flavor text for the dungeon.

LOL! yes, indeed, I've explored the branches in dungeons including The Thousand Maws, I read the notices on the wall, I even read the quest text...They do add flavor, as so much of the game does - if people slow down enough to take a look, or smell the roses. Personally I find that the game has so much of this kind of thing that playing at a slower pace and enjoying everything as you go - including the NPC chatter and various 'flavor text' in the game, makes the game that much more enjoyable for me. Though I know not everyone will feel that way. it just seems a pity sometimes how quickly people do things and gloss over the finer details, when those details are part of what really makes the game what it is.

[Eye_Gore]

Most likely, many have never read the messages posted on the dungeon walls there

I stopped once to read the first one. When I was done I had to sprint to get back up to the group, and I'm the tank.

[Ashkendor]

Well, you don't know me, but I do Q multiple times for low level roulette, not for the tomes though, just to help. Kind of paying it forward for all those that helped me in the past...

...Is there just no joy in that for anyone anymore?

There is, but not everyone helps in the same way. I do my own version of paying it forward with endgame content. Sometimes I jump into learning parties and clear parties for things like EX primals and SCoB to help out. I've even gone on FCoB clear runs, but not as often because it can't be till after my static is done for the week and it's inevitably a one-chest clear (some people aren't so keen on that). Sometimes my static runs farm nights where we put up a party finder stating "Need something cleared? We need your soldiery," valid for T1-8 and all EX primals. No charge for it aside from the soldiery bonus. Usually we end up with people that know the fights and have gotten them to sub-15% but just haven't found a group to put the nail in the coffin. :3