The problem with Summoners

[Havenchild]

So initially I was a big fan of Contagion being SMN ability, but I feel that would tip the scales in a quite decisive direction towards Ifrit and essentially make him unbeatable to an extent.
If SMN Contagion affects Ifrits Enkindle? That would be silly.

Also Garuda loses essentially the reason to use her. Aside from a fight like T9 where the boss moves around a lot and jumps all over, Ifrit would trump her in every single fight. She would need a massive buff to compete at that point.

The only use for Garuda would be one of two, in an enviorment where magic is utilized (T11) or fights that are dangerous to receive damage at melee range/ fights that have a lot of arena wide movement of the boss.

Titan, I feel definitely needs a Provoke. However this is something you have to be careful with because it can potentially be quite op, by allowing tanks to dodge mechanics. Imagine how much pressure is removed if a titan egi which can resummoned endlessly, can provoke a mechanic like ravensbeak in T9 savage or Revelation on T12 or Ahk morn on T13.
So perhaps a Provoke with a 3-4min CD or some restriction on it.

As for Ifrit, he does not need a buff.

An old suggestion was to give SMNs a passive party wide buff depending on what PET they have out, and while I love the idea, I feel that could also tip scales further in Ifrits favor.

[Brianmj]

So I should be happy with having no changes to my rotation when I get a job while other jobs get spells and skills that actually make a difference?

Yup. Summoner is just an Arcanist with Fester. For those of us that like the dot/pet play style, the current situation is fine. In your original post you mention Summoner lacks a "feel good" quality. This speaks more about your tastes than any problems the job may or may not have. An artist cannot please everyone. If what you have in front of you does nothing to wet your whistle, then it's up to you to move on to the next piece. I'm in the same situation with MNK and THM, they do nothing for me. But I don't create threads detailing how those jobs need to be reworked, I just don't level them. MNK and BLM mains would not appreciate it if I campaigned to have their jobs remade.

It's not my place to tell other people not to play a job dotdotdot

[Akiza]

Yup. Summoner is just an Arcanist with Fester. For those of us that like the dot/pet play style, the current situation is fine. In your original post you mention Summoner lacks a "feel good" quality. This speaks more about your tastes than any problems the job may or may not have. An artist cannot please everyone. If what you have in front of you does nothing to wet your whistle, then it's up to you to move on to the next piece. I'm in the same situation with MNK and THM, they do nothing for me. But I don't create threads detailing how those jobs need to be reworked, I just don't level them. MNK and BLM mains would not appreciate it if I campaigned to have their jobs remade.

It's not my place to tell other people not to play a job dotdotdot

Then play Scholar since they are the better of the DoT/Pet play style since they can DPS, buff and heal.
Which is the problem because why bring a Summoner to anything when Scholar completely dominates it and has unique skills optimal for DoT/Pet style of play while the Summoner is built for bursts.

[Dyvid]

Yup. Summoner is just an Arcanist with Fester. For those of us that like the dot/pet play style, the current situation is fine. In your original post you mention Summoner lacks a "feel good" quality. This speaks more about your tastes than any problems the job may or may not have. An artist cannot please everyone. If what you have in front of you does nothing to wet your whistle, then it's up to you to move on to the next piece. I'm in the same situation with MNK and THM, they do nothing for me. But I don't create threads detailing how those jobs need to be reworked, I just don't level them. MNK and BLM mains would not appreciate it if I campaigned to have their jobs remade.

It's not my place to tell other people not to play a job dotdotdot

Well said.

[Natsuno]

Then play Scholar since they are the better of the DoT/Pet play style since they can DPS, buff and heal.
Which is the problem because why bring a Summoner to anything when Scholar completely dominates it and has unique skills optimal for DoT/Pet style of play while the Summoner is built for bursts.

Only, some of us don't want to be pigeonholed into healing.

You don't like the job. We get that. Everyone gets that. Some of us do like it, and we sure aren't going to play a role that we don't enjoy just because you want to wittle summoner numbers down to warrant an overhaul.

[Akiza]

Only, some of us don't want to be pigeonholed into healing
You don't like the job. We get that. Everyone gets that. Some of us do like it, and we sure aren't going to play a role that we don't enjoy just because you want to wittle summoner numbers down to warrant an overhaul.

The Summoner numbers have already wittled down to barely seeing any on the server to to warrant an overhaul and as a former Summoner main I should know. The Summoner has a lot of Technical issues an endgame and is worthless in group content. The way content is designed with little down time, massive amount of up time and adds needed to be bursts down quickly or a wipe negatively impacts Summoner because they are mediocre in areas of DPS that matters. There is no point in bringing a Summoner to a group when they are outclassed by a large margin an all areas of DPS by other jobs. Final Fantasy III and Final Fantasy Tactics perfected the class/job system as well as perfected the Summoner there was no reason for SE to deviate so much from the original concept of the Summoner. The Summoner in Tactics branched from the Elementalist which calls upon the spirits of nature to deal Earth, Fire, Water and Wind Elemental Damage. Also the Summoner in Final Fantasy III and Final Fantasy Tactics specialized in Massive AoE Bursts with the Summon dealing Massive AoE Bursts as well. The Black Mage specializes in Massive Single Target Bursts and the Summoner should specialize in Massive AoE Bursts that's how they are suppose to contrast each other.

The AoE Bursts iteration of the Summoner from Final Fantasy Tactics Advance better fits the way content is designed in this game then the DoT iteration.

[Ardan]

Snip.

If you're a former SMN main, why even bother continuing to post about SMN anymore? Stop making up facts to further your arguments. People still play the job and that's a fact. It's far from worthless in endgame. Is it optimal? No. You want worthless? Go back to WAR 2.0. That crap warranted the massive buffs it deserved in 2.1.

And again, stop comparing past iterations from turn-based RPGs. They do not translate well into online action RPGs where balance must be kept. This argument can be made to any job in any FF.

[Akiza]

If you're a former SMN main, why even bother continuing to post about SMN anymore? Stop making up facts to further your arguments. People still play the job and that's a fact. It's far from worthless in endgame. Is it optimal? No. You want worthless? Go back to WAR 2.0. That crap warranted the massive buffs it deserved in 2.1.

And again, stop comparing past iterations from turn-based RPGs. They do not translate well into online action RPGs where balance must be kept. This argument can be made to any job in any FF.

The single player turn based RPGS is the resource material for all classes/jobs SE took the jobs form turned based rpgs and adapted them to an MMORPG format so don't give me that bs on about a the turn base iteration of the Summoner won't translate well. The DoT iteration of the Summoner is poorly optimized for this game while the traditional iteration of the Summoner fits perfectly. The arguments I made aren't made up they brute facts every since 2.4 the Summoner population has been decimated they either went Ninja, Healer or Black Mage because they are much more satisfying jobs. The Summoner has nothing and its painfully obvious that it's time for SE to return Summoner to its roots as a AoE Bursts Specialist with Average Single Target Bursts it's time to bring back the spiritual element to the Summoner by replacing there Arcanist abilities with Elementalist abilities. After the most recent buff most of the player base will agree that Summoner and Scholar should no longer share the same Base Class and the Summoner should be separated from the Arcanists The only people who keep saying Summoner is fine and doesn't need to change are the people that want to feel like a special snowflake and be one of the few that still uses Summoner.

Ardan I bet you'll be happy if you were the only person still playing Summoner even after everyone else has switched to the Dark Knight, Machinist or Astrologian since they will have a much more interesting play style then the Summoner. The Ninja already decimated the Summoner population the new jobs will put the Summoner in its eternal resting place.

[Ardan]

Snip.

You can't claim everyone jumped from SMN to whatever based on them not liking the job for what it is, that's just not true. Everyone has their own reasons, but the primary one is endgame. SMN just wasn't built for Final Coil and are now seeing it's flaws, hence people jumping. Last I checked, nobody is arguing against change, as in adjustments to it's current playstyle. The change you want is to feel like a special snowflake, summoning godlike beings, destroying stuff left and right. You've been whining for it since day one. Source material is just that: source material. How someone uses it depends on what they want to do with it.

And it's a bit of stretch to even presume the new jobs will be more interesting to SMN, let alone the rest of the jobs. A lot of people jumped to NIN, not all of them came from SMN. And I would gladly play the job I liked and not care what anyone says. I primarily played PUP in XI and played it well, despite its' weaknesses and I would do it again if I could.

[Ryans]

You can't claim everyone jumped from SMN to whatever based on them not liking the job for what it is, that's just not true. Everyone has their own reasons, but the primary one is endgame. SMN just wasn't built for Final Coil and are now seeing it's flaws, hence people jumping. Last I checked, nobody is arguing against change, as in adjustments to it's current playstyle. The change you want is to feel like a special snowflake, summoning godlike beings, destroying stuff left and right. You've been whining for it since day one. Source material is just that: source material. How someone uses it depends on what they want to do with it.

And it's a bit of stretch to even presume the new jobs will be more interesting to SMN, let alone the rest of the jobs. A lot of people jumped to NIN, not all of them came from SMN. And I would gladly play the job I liked and not care what anyone says. I primarily played PUP in XI and played it well, despite its' weaknesses and I would do it again if I could.

You aren't very good at arguing a point, Ardan. The reason people don't argue about changing the core mechanics of Monk or Blackmage is because they invoke some of the classic Final Fantasy feeling. They aren't exact iterations of the previous generations, but they resemble them. Summoner has been receiving flak since day one because it takes the Summoner namesake and then does nothing to fill the image. The one part of Summoner that actually tries to fit the image is its summons and they are nothing but terrible copies with no real impact on game play.

And just as Akiza cannot argue the reasons for people jumping ship, neither can you. Perhaps every single one of the people who quit playing summon quit because they don't like the horn on the AF.

While I don't necessarily agree with how Akiza wants summoner to be changed, it definitely needs one. The focus of the job should be on its... wait for it... summons.