The problem with Summoners

[Keyln]

People have been complaining about Summoner since day one do even if I stopped complaining 3 more people would take my place and complain aout the Summoner. DoT classes are useless in fast pace games like FFXIV because DPS can bursts enemies down before DoTs get their full duration which is a DPS loss to Summoner being mostly DoT. That's why for this game Summoner should be a Summoner/Ekementalist with the Pet specializing Massive AoE Bursts Damage.

I disagree. While burst type jobs can do great damage up front, it requires a huge amount of resources to do so, usually in the form of MP. Over a medium period of time, say a minute, a DoT class and a burst class will do the same amount of damage in that period of time. That's good balance. Over a longer period of time, the DoT, played properly, can pull ahead of the burster in terms of damage done.

That's not to say that Summoner could use improvements, especially in the AoE department. I don't think anyone is asking that SMN be ahead of BLM, but some equity with the above in mind would be in order.

[Craiger]

People have been complaining about Summoner since day one do even if I stopped complaining 3 more people would take my place and complain aout the Summoner. DoT classes are useless in fast pace games like FFXIV because DPS can bursts enemies down before DoTs get their full duration which is a DPS loss to Summoner being mostly DoT. That's why for this game Summoner should be a Summoner/Ekementalist with the Pet specializing Massive AoE Bursts Damage.

No offense, but do you raid?

Raid fights are long, and burst damage doesn't matter on those... where it matters are adds, and yes, SMN are weaker on those than BLM, but if SMN have higher sustained DPS than BLM in 3.0, then that would be good too.

Also, how would AoE burst help SMN in raids?

Raids are what matters, cause if we're gonna balance towards other content, then MNK's are f'cking useless for example...

EDIT: Not everyone raids, but that's what the balancing is made for, that's why I said that...

[Akiza]

No offense, but do you raid?

Raid fights are long, and burst damage doesn't matter on those... where it matters are adds, and yes, SMN are weaker on those than BLM, but if SMN have higher sustained DPS than BLM in 3.0, then that would be good too.

Also, how would AoE burst help SMN in raids?

Raids are what matters, cause if we're gonna balance towards other content, then MNK's are f'cking useless for example...

EDIT: Not everyone raids, but that's what the balancing is made for, that's why I said that...

Bursts Damage does matter in Raids because they have adds that need to be killed fast or its a Wipe that's why Black Mage is preferred over Summoner. I
In long fights DoT classes lose damage over time because their damage starts off high than deteriorates faster than Direct Damage Dealers. That's how Summoners Damage works and that's why they make poor single target classes.
In MMORPG's DoT classes specialize in Crowd Control because they can cause negative status effects and slowly drain mobs health like the WoW Warlock. Since there is no need for crowd control in this game DoT classes are Shield Healers.

[Craiger]

Bursts Damage does matter in Raids because they have adds that need to be killed fast or its a Wipe that's why Black Mage is preferred over Summoner. I
In long fights DoT classes lose damage over time because their damage starts off high than deteriorates faster than Direct Damage Dealers. That's how Summoners Damage works and that's why they make poor single target classes.
In MMORPG's DoT classes specialize in Crowd Control because they can cause negative status effects and slowly drain mobs health like the WoW Warlock. Since there is no need for crowd control in this game DoT classes are Shield Healers.

You said AoE burst... And unless you have many adds stacked together, that doesn't matter. SMN needs a little more burst damage, not AoE burst damage.

DoT damage doesn't deteriorate faster than direct damage... A DoT does the exact same damage at the beginning as it does at the end, and as long as the DoT lasts the full duration, there are no difference between DoTs and Direct damage.

SMNs strong point is sustained DPS, meaning they are best at keeping their DPS high at longer fights, just like MNKs. They don't have high enough DPS, but that has nothing to do with how their abilities work...

It's not like DoTs deliver a different kind of damage or something, it just splits up the damage into smaller portions over time, the total damage is exactly as high.

The reason BLM does more DPS than SMN right now, doesn't have to do with DoTs not doing as much damage, it has to do with SMNs spells not being balanced right, and Spell Speed doesn't work for SMN, which you get a lot from the current gear.

If you increase the damage on SMNs DoTs enough, you'll have as high DPS as a MNK or NIN, and that doesn't change in a long fight, because SMN is best at longer fights (in regards to sustained DPS, not MP)


Who cares what other MMORPGs do things?

[Havenae]

stuff

It doesn't really matter why most summoners jumped ship, although it likely has little to do with aesthetic value.

The point is, is that it is one of the least played jobs, and that alone should tell you something. It should tell you that there are
issues that should be addressed. It shows that there is a real reason why most players will not play it. Plain and simple.

Trying to pretend there is nothing wrong with the job, when there clearly is, doesn't help anyone.

[keyburz]

I think the titan summon should lock down enemies, and be nearly impossible for a player tank to pull it off. Like whatever enmity titan is currently doing right now, buff it times 10. But let it not work on bosses, only for a single target, and the longer he locks down an enemy the more damage he takes. Ideas? Because if titan cant do what hes literally designed to do, tanking, he shouldnt be titan.

[Minorinz]

Spell speed should fix the dps issues with summoner which is why they will nerf it eventually anyway, people need to move on from how the class/job works because it will not change. I don't know if people listened to the live letter but Yoshida said that designing a new job from scratch takes 2 years and it's a lot of work, doing this with summoner will take way longer than a year for sure so it's impossible for them to touch it while it's already being engaged in the game. Just. Move. On.

[Craiger]

Spell speed should fix the dps issues with summoner which is why they will nerf it eventually anyway, people need to move on from how the class/job works because it will not change. I don't know if people listened to the live letter but Yoshida said that designing a new job from scratch takes 2 years and it's a lot of work, doing this with summoner will take way longer than a year for sure so it's impossible for them to touch it while it's already being engaged in the game. Just. Move. On.

Huh? If the Spell Speed change fixes SMNs DPS issues, why would they nerf it later on? That would just make them weak again...

Also, while we don't know the Spell/Skill speed changes yet, I doubt it alone would take SMN to the level they need to be at.

That becomes especially true when you start to think about who else will be affected by that change... Every DPS job except BLM, relies a lot on DoT damage in their rotations (BLM one is mostly for Thundercloud proc), so even the high DPS melee jobs would see a big increase in DPS.

They don't need to completely overhaul the job like many suggesting, but they have an opportunity to change them a lot now with new abilities and traits coming in 3.0...

The new abilities could bring some more burst damage (not too much, cause there needs to be some difference between BLM and SMN), and either with that burst, or with another ability, they could make the job more interesting... They could make one or more abilities that is tied to the primals that was gonna be used with SMN, not new egis, but abilities that call upon those primals and perform an attack of some sort. The possibilities are unless.

One of the traits could fix their MP issues further (still needs some work considering BLMs advantages IMO), if that's even needed with the level increase and whatnot...

In other words, they could completely change SMN around without changing abilities that are already in the game. Might not please everyone, but I would go back to SMN in a heartbeat if they just make them balanced and a little more exciting than ruin/ruin II...

[zeroaru]

<snip>

The point is, is that it is one of the least played jobs, and that alone should tell you something. It should tell you that there are
issues that should be addressed. It shows that there is a real reason why most players will not play it. Plain and simple.

Trying to pretend there is nothing wrong with the job, when there clearly is, doesn't help anyone.

Honestly, I see way more Summoners than what people make out on the forums. I rarely go into WoD without having at least 2 or 3 in there. I come across them frequently when tanking too. Not as much as Ninjas or Dragoons or Bards but I'd say I personally see them almost as frequently as Monks or Blackmages for example.

There are things wrong with the job yes, but just because the tyres are flat doesn't mean we should replace the engine. I honestly feel like summoner is just a few steps away from being where it needs to be.

[TripPsyc]

Until I see what actually the spell speed changes do that is pretty much speculation at this point. But I don't expect them to be reading the feedback about summoner all this time and not listening to any of it all. Going forward into heavensward the 50-60 block might actually be game changing who knows. I do however get the impression of late that summoners are getting the same treatment that dragoons use to get from the atypical coil runners.
Personally I hope the new egis bring more flavor to some low cd burst moves that actually make "burn" mechanics actually more valid. I personally would like to see a pet/trait that speeds up our dot ticks for rapid damage with a lower enkindle cd. Enkindle is pretty damn underwhelming atm, the cooldown ontop of its damage barely touching blm multi flare.