Current classes/jobs are too simple

[silentwindfr]

DPS: MNK (positioning- dodge) > SMN (pay attention to DoT timers, egi managment, batlle res and mp) > DRG (alternate combos- dodge) > BRD (CD optimzation - songs at the righ time) > NIN (mundras are prolly the only thing- dodge easier than other melees cuz the extra speed) > BLM (simple rotation - pay attention to insta stuff)
)

are you insane?
ninja easier than dragoon and bard? with al the trouble tie to the mudra? seriously? bard have no combo, no positioning.... what it's hard to play with bard?
and about the dragoon is always the same stuff, they have even take out the positioning from the combo... making far easier to play of all the melee class.

seriously dude you haven't play a loot ninja in high level dungeon for say this.

[Moqi]

You suggestions sounds.... eh

Risk/Reward abilities - like a limit break that locks you down to do big damage.

What do you mean? We already can't move after a limit break.

Or rolling a die to add to a total which buffs you, but you "Bust" if you roll past a maximum.

Because we have little RNG already. I'd quit the dungeon if I got paired up with a class that has the potential to be absolutely useless.

More complex ground targetting abilities - like the level X attacks used by the eye boss in WoD except you are the one using it.

I'd rather not have my crossbars full of situational skills that I will use once in a blue moon. Repose bothers me enough already.

[LineageRazor]

Because we have little RNG already. I'd quit the dungeon if I got paired up with a class that has the potential to be absolutely useless.

SE has proven they can get this right. Corsair in FFXI was a job that used dice rolls to apply buffs. Normal rolls provided good buffs, and the occasional good roll provided AWESOME buffs. While it WAS possible for a COR to Bust and fail to apply a buff, this was infrequent enough that people generally did not mind.

Their primary competitor was BRD, and throughout the lifetime of the game after COR was added, there was never a firm consensus on which buffing job was the preferred one - and even folks who preferred BRD were unlikely to complain when they saw a COR in their party instead.

I'm guessing FFXI's COR was the job the OP had in mind when they posted, and trust me, adding RNG of the sort COR presents would not be a bad thing.

[Neclinesh]

To OP (and really anyone who is curious about these things): You should try playing Tera. It's a free-to-play MMO, and I'm not suggesting you stay with it at all, because it fails on so many levels. But it did one thing EXTREMELY well: combat. I won't go into tedious details here, but imagine being a tank, with a shield, and you actually had to hit and hold an action button to bring up your shield to block on incoming attack! Succeed, and the blow is deflected completely. Fail, and you take the full force of the blow. THAT is how tanking should be. ACTIVE!

-Balls

[Sylkis]

Try doing the Clockwise motion with your right hand and counter-clockwise motion with your left feet

Yes, I forgot to say "with your right hand and feet or left hand and feet".

To OP (and really anyone who is curious about these things): You should try playing Tera. It's a free-to-play MMO, and I'm not suggesting you stay with it at all, because it fails on so many levels. But it did one thing EXTREMELY well: combat.

-Balls

I did play TERA for a while, the combat is quite nice. I like how you had a dodge skill that did an attack at the same time (I played warrior).

But the other aspects of the game are lacking. Those lacking parts are done well here in XIV which is why I'm still here. But I really do enjoy the combat over there and wish it was here.

Perhaps we are still here for the same reason.

Pushing buttons constantly doesn't make it a more involved system. I'd rather have the combat system of FFXIV 1.23 back. It has a lot more depth than the system we have now, in my opinion. Weapon skills costed between 1,000 and 1,500 TP and weapon skills each had individual cool downs.

I personally enjoyed 1.23 combat, but many people hated it because of the engine it was running on. Animation lock was a system limitation(though it did add more depth to combat but in an unpolished way). They were hating the wrong thing.

The key that made it enjoyable was that you could not just use a rotation because when you are interrupted by the mechanics, you cant go back on that rotation and had to do something completely different, due to individual cooldowns. You had to think.


Had it been given a better chance... The complaints about it (which were in fact toward the game engine) probably lead to it being scrapped for what we have now.

[Ryans]

I personally enjoyed 1.23 combat, but many people hated it because of the engine it was running on. Animation lock was a system limitation(though it did add more depth to combat but in an unpolished way). They were hating the wrong thing.

The key that made it enjoyable was that you could not just use a rotation because when you are interrupted by the mechanics, you cant go back on that rotation and had to do something completely different, due to individual cooldowns. You had to think.


Had it been given a better chance... The complaints about it (which were in fact toward the game engine) probably lead to it being scrapped for what we have now.

That is exactly it. They trashed a great system because people complained about, to use a construction analogy, the ground the structure was built on even though the building was beautifully crafted.

[Sylkis]

I like things the way they are. Not everyone likes overly complicated jobs that are make it harder to focus on mechanics.

See, this is what I mean. You don't want it more complex because it distracts you from focusing on something else. It's like playing 2 games.

I'm looking for something where you can respond to the mechanics not with your feet, but with your abilities. Not simply activating some tank damage reduction skill.

simple mechancis = harder rotations
harder mechanics = simple rotations

choose 1 , because easy easy is boring and hard hard drives ppl mad and away from the game...

some specs are worse than others , look a ninja mudras , annoying as hell if u have 200+ ping , infuriating at times.

Or remove rotations and just have harder mechanics. Rotations are something that stay the same all the time but keeps you busy, forcing the mechanics to be easier.
It's really only difficult now because no one can fail doing the simple thing in the whole party or the whole party fails.

I'm always curious at people who claim you hit only a few buttons to DPS

Yes there are more than 3 buttons. But when the order of the buttons and the timing between hitting them are about the same, it feels like one button.



I have tried out all the jobs. Rotations are boring, even if they are 30 buttons long because it doesn't change. There's more emphasis on pressing something every 2.5s than thinking about what to press.

You suggestions sounds.... eh

What do you mean? We already can't move after a limit break.

Because we have little RNG already. I'd quit the dungeon if I got paired up with a class that has the potential to be absolutely useless.

I'd rather not have my crossbars full of situational skills that I will use once in a blue moon. Repose bothers me enough already.

1. A skill that has a charge time which you can use more often instead of once a fight or never if you are not DPS.

2. When done right and played right, it is 90% skill/experience and 10% RNG. More poker/blackjack rather than roulette/slot machines.

3. Repose sucks because nothing worthwhile can be slept, and because sleepga is better. Think about a skill that you can use almost every fight but is situational. How about blood for blood in coil? It's situational because you can kill yourself yet it is still used every fight.

[kyuven]

I'm looking for something where you can respond to the mechanics not with your feet, but with your abilities. Not simply activating some tank damage reduction skill.

So what you want is something, like, if everyone gets frozen by shiva, the BLM has to cast Fire II to break everyone out?
There's kind of a big problem with having mechanics reliant on abilities: It needs to be an ability usable by all classes. This is why t4's soldiers and knights were nerfed, and why that particular mechanic doesn't show up in later encounters. For example, Leviathan has one part that's meant for physical and one part that's meant for magic/the tank. They share the same HP so as long as you have 2 tanks and everyone attacks the right target, you can win.
SE has stated in no uncertain terms that they want to make absolutely sure that it's possible to do any given encounter with any given class so long as there's a tank, healer, and DPS present. They don't want one class excluded from content because the content does something that class can't handle.
Thus, for this reason, we'll never have something that responds to a unique ability. The only thing every class HAS in common is our feet, so the mechanics are designed around them.There are a few cases of using your abilities to handle/mitigate mechanics, but it's mostly via damage prevention. For example, in FCOB, MNKs and SCH/SMN are used to reduce the damage output on bosses to increase survivability, NIN's have to time their trick attacks to meet with DPS bursts (or vice versa) and a SCH's entire shtick relies on timing their adlos/sacred soil to deal with hard hitting mechanics.
But it's still possible to do the fights without them by design, because not everybody can think this way. It's also reserved for endgame content for this reason.

Or remove rotations and just have harder mechanics. Rotations are something that stay the same all the time but keeps you busy, forcing the mechanics to be easier.

Rotations aren't EXACTLY something that's created intentionally. Combo strings are, but those were purposefully created so we can't just spam one ability and neglect the rest. The design intent is to get us to have all of the abilities at our disposal have value. This is also why we don't have very many compared to a lot of other games, even compared to 1.0. Rotations are creations by the player to maximize their usage of abilities to get the best out of their class. Not everyone uses the same rotation. It's why the class forums have rotation threads and why there are multiple play guides to begin with. Honestly for many classes if you're using the same rotation all the time, you're kinda doing it wrong.
For example, a NIN may have a different rotation when working with a warrior than with a paladin. A BRD should definitely be playing different when teamed with a BLM and/or SMN vs. teamed with 3-4 melees. Hell the BRD even changes when working with the NIN!
While you can get away with just doing the same rotation over and over, you're also not really paying attention to your situation by doing so.
Basically, rotations won't go away even if they remove combo chains. Even the oldest of the old MMOs, like EQ1, have a rotation system. It's just a lot slower because of cast times. "CH (complete heal) rotations" were a thing back then.

[Sylkis]

So what you want is something, like, if everyone gets frozen by shiva, the BLM has to cast Fire II to break everyone out?

1. No, that would be pointless. Definitely not something where you have to use a specific skill to advance.
Instead of roadblocks that must be cleared to advance, it should be opportunities that can be taken.
For example...say that a DPS has a highly damaging attack but it puts them at the top of the hate list. There are times where the boss will not auto attack (e.g. Turn 10) . That would be a good time to use it, but certainly not the only time that it could be used.
It's hard to come up with a good example when the encounters are 100% scripted and the optimal thing to do has been worked out for any job at any time.

2. There's a core rotation with each job, and the variations are small. A bard sings a song and goes back to whatever in 3 seconds. A NIN/WAR party is just "ok I will/won't have this 1 skill in my rotation" and they still do their normal thing with that slight variation.

Comparing to say 1.23. You couldn't use certain skills in certain situations for certain encounters, so you replace it with something else. But once you have moved that skill there, you can't use it later at the "usual" time because all skills had individual cooldowns, so you replace it again with something else and so on... By that time you don't really have a rotation anymore. Also, the time that situation happens can be different each time you fight the boss, and so the skill you swap out can be different. What made a player do better DPS depended on their choices much more than how they kept up with button presses.

You still had a perfect rotation to use on a dummy, but it ends up nothing like it. Compared to here, you have a perfect rotation on a dummy and it's mostly like that in a fight. If you get interrupted by a mechanic or party setup, you just go back to it after doing your thing.

A rotation didn't exist, only general knowledge about which decisions were better.

[kyuven]

"Opportunities" basically means you want optional mechanics. This...kinda already exists. For example, the rocks in Garuda HM are now considered "optional." The pillars in the Fenrir fight are technically optional, as you can survive without them.
Fights are actually scripted to include these, such as, using garuda as an example, using the shield from the spiny plumes to survive garuda's attack. Or hell literally everything about the cerberus fight.Your example is...well, having an ability that places a DPS at the top of the hate list is an absolutely horrendous idea from many different standpoints, as that's basically a Provoke, and is open to a TON of abuse. Developers must be very careful adding these skills, or else you create...
Well, to give an FFXI example...you run the risk of creating something akin to NIN/WAR Blink Tanks.
While that sounds interesting, it makes design a nightmare.
And there already are many bosses with "opportunities" to completely cut loose on DPS. For example, t10's boss does nothing after the adds go down before it throws out its big AOE. During this time, the tanks and healers can switch to their DPS rotations, and the DPS can cut loose since they don't have any mechanics to dodge. It's during this time that a lot of MNKS, NINs, DRGs, etc. use their potions since they can maximize DPS.
There's also cases where some classes are given special options for avoiding mechanics, especially ninjas and black mages. For example, both of them can effectively ignore the Avalanche ability from Shiva by using Manawall or Perfect Dodge. In addition, MNKs, NIN, and DRG have options for dealing with the frozen floor in that fight. Not to mention how many things can be mitigated or avoided with skills like Repelling shot.

A rotation didn't exist, only general knowledge about which decisions were better.

that just means you have more rotations, not getting rid of rotations.
In X situation i use Rotation A, in Y situation I use Rotation B.
To use an example, in EQ1 and many other, older games, resistances and vulnerabilities were a thing. This usually meant you had to use another skill from a massive pile of skills. Rotations still existed, there were just more of them and they lasted a lot longer.
Again, rotations DID exist, they were just adjusted to a particular type of fight rather than a universal one for a given class.
This was an implementation nightmare, and had the consequence of requiring more skills for every class to the point a the 255 spell limit actually had to be raised.
And few of those spells saw much real use.