Of Tanking and WoD

[Tiggy]

All DPS method seems to be the fastest of the strategies I've seen so far.

All DPS go into Cerb while all Tanks and Healers stay out side to tank and heal against Cerb and Adds. (1 healer can go in to keep the Unknowns from causing issues if they want but normally only 1 or 0 DPS players would die from a Unknown without a healer)

If the DPS know how to effectively DPS in Cerb belly then Cerb boss fight can be done in matter of 1 minute or less.

I don't like this strategy due to all the time DPS waste waiting to get small, waiting to get eaten, and waiting to zone in and out. People say it's faster, but it doesn't make any sense to be faster with so much DPS time lost.

[KitanaiKoneko]

...
^unless the i70/80 tank REALLY wants to, in which case, they can ask in /a, and I will be content to let them try. As long as the healers aren't pulling threat I have np dialing back.

Only problem is, an i70/80 tank is not going to hold hate against a well geared and capable dps.

Just like in WoD when one tank grabs the 3 garms on first trash and proceeds to lose 2 of them to me as I use fire II.

[Docent]

Anyroad, I just typically assume I'm MT. If will run up, watch the map, make sure players are all in the arena (ready Checks are too slow) I'll take a pause to see if the other tanks are running in, but not a long one, before I just charge in myself.

I'm the same. I don't give very long for other tanks to "volunteer" as tanks -- If everyone is past the zone line before a pull, I'll let my healer know and charge ahead. Most of the time I'll default to main tanking the whole place, despite how much I hate tanking Cloud of Darkness and Cerberus.
Because of this, I tend to ask people for the "all dps in" method, because I'll me main tanking no matter which alliance I'm thrown in, and won't get myself mini'd and eaten in such cases.

If somebody does pull threat and seem to want to MT, I turn Defiance off, make sure hey have full threat, and then wheel around to the side to avoid getting cleaved.

That's where you and I differ. Personally, I'll see it and take it as a challenge. When that happens, I'll usually have a threat-battle with 'em.
If someone asked me why I do this, I wouldn't really know the answer. By thinking about it for a second, I suppose it's because another tank is probably the only thing that can provide challenging enmity to benchmark against, so it's making me naturally try and see if I can match/beat it, despite the risk involved (spinning the boss, getting us or others cleaved, etc.)

[Ophie-Mio]

I've heard some ridiculous stories about tanks trying to out-aggro each other in CT, surely just a myth hopefully.

Though the first run in CT I did as a tank my co-tank and I worked together and the other tanks didn't wanna start nothing, I've seen in previous runs just tanks who are animals towards each other.

The CT pissing contests were not fun to watch because the skeletons for instance are being fought over by two tanks and eventually it dies and blasts raid wide damage. KB is fought over and IG is roaming wild, mowing down healers.

A myth? I wish.

I don't like this strategy due to all the time DPS waste waiting to get small, waiting to get eaten, and waiting to zone in and out. People say it's faster, but it doesn't make any sense to be faster with so much DPS time lost.

We agree to this. I don't notice any difference in terms of how long it takes when I'm standing around with three Wolfsbanes. I only notice that when there are no willing OTs, the wipes become a bit more imminent because adds are left to roam wild.

Personally, I'll see it and take it as a challenge. When that happens, I'll usually have a threat-battle with 'em.
If someone asked me why I do this, I wouldn't really know the answer. By thinking about it for a second, I suppose it's because another tank is probably the only thing that can provide challenging enmity to benchmark against, so it's making me naturally try and see if I can match/beat it, despite the risk involved (spinning the boss, getting us or others cleaved, etc.)

See? Tank pissing contest. Despite the risks, they wanna see who the biggest enmity machine in the room is.
I'm like Misenklauph, if you voke it off me and you have better gear/if you can hold it, I'll let you keep it and I'll go to work on adds. It's the harder, more recognized job in terms of your healers. If you can't hold it, then I'll just shake my head and continue on and tomahawk the adds that they are ignoring while they attempt to steal the boss from me some more.

[Docent]

The CT pissing contests were not fun to watch because the skeletons for instance are being fought over by two tanks and eventually it dies and blasts raid wide damage. KB is fought over and IG is roaming wild, mowing down healers.

Labyrinth of the Ancient is an old raid, where there were many mistakes / learning errors from the designers.

I'll start with Behemoth: Tanks having a "pissing contest" here doesn't make much sense -- all 6 tanks have some task assigned to them usually - It's a pretty simple fight, with clear responsibilities for all. However, with the current gear level, you don't need the 4 tower tanks anymore -- the towers automatically reset when Behemoth "Grrrrrraaaarghs", from what I've observed. In any case, it should be 1 tank on Behemoth, and all tanks (1 acting as tank, others as DPS) on the IGs.

For Bone Dragon: This is the biggest encounter design error. There's 6 tanks, but really one is the MT, and then skeletons spawn in pairs at fixed HP%. If the DPS stops to kill the skeletons, then you have rarely more than 2 live skeletons up at a time. That's 3 tanks doing something, and 3 trying to help who end up screwing things up. The "pissing contest" here is due to every tank TRYING to be helpful.

For Thanatos: Here we face a new problem: A boss that way too often is never picked off the "main tank" who is suddenly unable to interact with him. This is a fight where tanks are meant to provoke off each other and switch main tanking (so where those so called pissing-contest are actually the "proper" way to handle it). For once, all "off-tanks" have plenty of targets to keep them busy. Probably so many, actually, that none of them think of dealing with the main boss when it's their turn.

---

You see a lot less issues in raids like ST and WoD, where the encounter design is much clearer, and the MT doesn't have to tank swap or anything of the sorts.

See? Tank pissing contest. Despite the risks, they wanna see who the biggest enmity machine in the room is.

Yep. A flaw of mine, and one I share no matter my job. I'll try to out-threat, out-tank, out-DPS or out-Heal people no matter the job I'm on, assuming I can. Everything is a race, a competition or a chance to prove myself, even if I'm only proving it to myself.

That said, with the gear I use when main tanking, there's only two type of tanks who'll steal the mob off me and actually cause the issues listed above (cleaving, spinning, etc.):
1) Tanks that are even more geared and aggressive than I am. In which case I won't be able to steal it back. (but I will try my best to match their threat line)
2) Tanks that are using provoke. I will never out-provoke another tank. But if you steal it from me that way, you better generate more enmity per click than me, or it'll just come back.

In other words, there's being a douche on purpose (standing opposite sides, using provoke, trying to "be the one tanking", getting people killed), and then there's being competitive and trying to prove to yourself you can out-threat the guy with better gear (staying elbow to elbow with him, using cooldowns, potions and every tool in your toolkit to build extra threat, watching who's the target of target, etc.)

By constantly trying to push my limits and learn just what I'm able to do, I try to better myself and my understanding of my own capabilities. To me, that's a pretty key element of my playstyle.
Meeting people who are on the same job and are better (gear or skill) players, then try to "compete" to match/beat them is one of the easiest way to know if you can push that limit even further.

[Mishini_Dracoto]

Snip.

For all I know, we are long-lost twins.

Snip.

our Behemoth example, I suffered the opposite last night. Maybe everybody thought that was the case. M co-tank was an FC member of mine, and we queued the two of us. OK, our WHM was trolling us almost the entire raid. Aside from that, I called MT on Behemoth, and he called Giants. Why? our Healers (even Especially the one trolling us) proved they could handle healing us.

The other tanks, all just DPS's behemoth with Defiance/Shield oath on. Two towers broke before the first Roar. Let me tell you, that made the rest of the fight far more difficult than it needed to be. It didn't help that we bet I could Survive a meteor, and due to floor dmg etc, even popping Vengeance, IB, ToB, I was still down to 2Khp after Meteor landed.

******Point Is*****

I understand your desire to esablish a bench mark for who holds more threat, however, you should only really do that when you are in a party with another tank, and two healers, who have agreed to this before hand. Otherwise, you are just being an MP sponge by taking cleave damage you could Should have avoided.

God forbid you are one of those tanks, trying to pull threat, and standing with the DPS. So many times I see somebody voke+BB or RoH and get the whole alliance cleaved by some hard hitting attack. Then I get blamed for losing threat.

Get BB ready, wait for their BB or RoH to go off, voke + BB. Threat is mine again. #Winning. If I want to Win harder, unchained, Infuriate, internal Release, bloodbath, berserk, provoke, Inner Beast, butcher's block + keep DPS'ing. In your face any-other-tank-but-me

[Snugglebutt]

The only thing I hate in WoD from tanks is when they don't keep Angra Mainyu facing a single direction, the need to keep alternating the floor AoE red/blue becomes very annoying when Angra Mainyu is spinning around all over the place and so have no idea where the red and blue is going to end up. When have three tanks new to the place it is pretty simple to say tank in the middle for AoE'ing the trash mobs if they all over the place so I have no problem with that. I am not a tank but I don't recall any other boss having anything uber tricky to tank in WoD from my perspective though I could be wrong. Casters and healers I imagine have the more tricky jobs in WoD.

[Docent]

Our Behemoth example, I suffered the opposite last night. Maybe everybody thought that was the case. M co-tank was an FC member of mine, and we queued he wo of us. OK, our WHM was trolling us almost the entire raid. Aside from that, I called MT on Behemoth, and he called Giants. Why? our Healers (even Especially the one trolling us) proved they could handle healing us.

I'll have to check the towers next time I run LotA for my Carboncoat. I had my eyes on a tower last time I ran it (I wasn't MT that run, someone else was more aggressive than me!), and I never had to click it. I will double-check if it really resets on its own, or if a sneaky lalafell kept hitting it in my stead.

God forbid you are one of those tanks, trying to pull threat, and standing with the DPS. So many times I see somebody voke+BB or RoH and get the whole alliance cleaved by some hard hitting attack. Then I get blamed for losing threat.

I am responsible in my stupidity. If I am "in a pissing contest", it'll only be with someone trying to steal it from ME (As in, I was the MT, I pulled and positioned mob, and am facing the right way, and suddenly another tank challenges me).
If you pulled before me and I'm in the same raid, you can believe me I'll be out of defiance faster than you can say "snap!" and just popping my 2 DPS combo over and over (hey, I'm giving you extra damage and debuff the boss!), and simply watch my threat to be 2nd in line in case you die. I don't challenge tanks that pull before me and let me DPS -- I'm just going to start to compete for damage dealt with the DPSers instead.

The only thing I hate in WoD from tanks is when they don't keep Angra Mainyu facing a single direction, the need to keep alternating the floor AoE red/blue becomes very annoying when Angra Mainyu is spinning around all over the place and so have no idea where the red and blue is going to end up.

For Angra: If the MT moves in and out fast enough, the boss shouldn't spin when he does the blue/red floors.

I am not a tank but I don't recall any other boss having anything uber tricky to tank in WoD from my perspective though I could be wrong. Casters and healers I imagine have the more tricky jobs in WoD.

Other than having a brain, some HP and defensive cooldown, MT tanking duty in WoD is the easiest job in the raid, by far. I have yet to learn the mechanics of all the bosses, as I've almost never ran them on DPS or Healer, but as a tank, I pretty much 1-2-3 and pop cooldowns and it's a win. (Position the boss, move out of AoE, but those are given)

[Mahri]

That's where you and I differ. Personally, I'll see it and take it as a challenge. When that happens, I'll usually have a threat-battle with 'em.
If someone asked me why I do this, I wouldn't really know the answer. By thinking about it for a second, I suppose it's because another tank is probably the only thing that can provide challenging enmity to benchmark against, so it's making me naturally try and see if I can match/beat it, despite the risk involved (spinning the boss, getting us or others cleaved, etc.)

See, now.

This is not good.

The competition is completely in your head, and all you're doing is creating a distraction by forcing your ego-trip onto others rather than helping the group succeed. You are choosing to be part of the problem, and not part of the solution.

Please do not do this.

[Mishini_Dracoto]

Other than having a brain, some HP and defensive cooldown, MT tanking duty in WoD is the easiest job in the raid, by far.

See, I'm not totally unreasonable, I agree with you here.

For Mangra, I think (s)he was stating if you don't take Mangra in the center, not about spinning Angra when Angra uses that attack. If you, for example, tanked Mangra near the edge . . . the fight would be far more complicated than is required.