Gridania and "outsiders"

[Sapphic]

After the clamaity the strength of the elementals diminished. In 1.0 you leant more of the synergy between the elementals and Gridanians. Gridanians have always been wary of outsiders due to the agreement they have with the elementals, outsiders dont know or don't understand and thus could do things which would risk that fragile peace between the Gridys and the elementals.

In 1.0 your introduction to Grid is woodsin. Where you did something to anger the elementals and was tainted so that the forest saw you pretty much as an enemy and you had to go through a ritual to cleanse it.

[Kaiser-Ace]

I just want to make a Gridania a happier place. I want to make everything around me happy. It just feels so sad and lonely when it could be better.

Garlemauld has a great plan in making the world a "Happyer Place". Kill all the primals, beast tribes, echo users, and any one else that believes in " Eikons" and bring the whole world under one united banner, aka theirs, whether they like it or not.

But how manny people will be killed? Gridania's problems only appear to be black and white just like Ul'dah and Ishgaurds use too. Why? Because we have seen in great detail how things are really working there. I did the mog mail quest in East Shroud (that then leads to South Shroud) and those wood wailers at the end I was really tempted to kill my self. There is corruption somewhere in Gridania, we just have yet to smoke it out.

[myahele]

I kinda like how, despite being "tree hugging hippies," they are so unwelcoming to strangers. When the Elementals were at their peak I am pretty sure many travelers who didn't take the designated path were outright killed by the elementals.

Anyways, Kan E Senna is doing her best to project the image that OP wants.

[ruskie]

Hmm it's been nearly a year since I did the botanist questline but as far as I recall Fufucha is a pacifist and her questline involved the moral connundrum about supplying resources to the grand company while at the same time that grand company being used on more than just direct protection of the Shroud.

And the leatherworker questline teaches you about respecting what you receive in terms of skins from hunted animals. This leads to why the leatherworkers guild leather is so sought after due to it's high quality that they focus on out of respect.

Sadly outsiders often don't show even the minimal of respect and consider things just as resources to be used and discarded.

And to top it off you yourself as an adventurer are an outsider. Do you get a distinct feeling of being hated on? Only place I got this feeling was during the archer questline really. The rest were either neutral or friendly towards me.

So the question is more what are you doing differently than the other outsiders.

[Kaiser-Ace]

Sadly outsiders often don't show even the minimal of respect and consider things just as resources to be used and discarded.

And to top it off you yourself as an adventurer are an outsider. Do you get a distinct feeling of being hated on? Only place I got this feeling was during the archer questline really. The rest were either neutral or friendly towards me.

So the question is more what are you doing differently than the other outsiders.

Short Answer, Actually giving a crap about the Twelve's Wood and the Plants and creatures within it.

[RolandDebreton]

/sigh, this misunderstanding again...

A few months back, heavens it may have been a year ago, a role player was opining about the failings of Gridania its religion and the bigotry, falsity and evils of Gridania. I wrote her a length response. Rather than link the thread I'll just modify it to this discussion and reiterate what I said before:

I have always found it amusing that Gridania is targetted by many player/commentators as being the most insular and xenophobic of states. Specialized adventurer divisions exist for each of the city stats in their military/social divisions, but Limsa Lominsa calls their out as the 'Foreign Levy,' along with the Privateers (pirates, fishing boats etc) and Ul'dah refers to theirs as the 'Foreign Brigades,' along with the very looked-down upon, Ala Mhigans. Only the Gridanian divisions place the Yellow Serpents (formed strictly of adventurers) along with all the other military divisions of the Twin Adders. Couple that with the fact that they are honored with the very animal symbolic of the city-state and you have a very welcoming imagery for outsiders.

There are a number of average citizens in Gridania that can be overheard feeling animus toward outsiders, there are soldiers in the Adders that could just as soon do without another adventurer. Then, one could also say that there are racists and xenophobic individuals in nearly every group in our own world and their shortcomings do not serve to identify the larger group.

The Elementals

Then, there are the Elementals. I think they are more realistic and primeval than you give them credit for. They represent the will of nature as it were. It is a system designed to protect itself so naturally it will be picky about who it chooses to interact with. If nature was given a measure of sentience and was allowed to manifest in power it would to my thinking be very like what has been imagined in the Elementals.

Humans are in their essence very similar. We in our existence have had a measure of social evolution that has made us defensive toward outsiders while defensive of those that belong to us, call it tribal nature, pack order or whatever you wish. This is the nadir of social order and was necessary for our survival throughout most of our existence.

This existence is humorously examined in The Croods recently, the father figure, seeing much of his species dying off became very cautious and insulated his family from danger and outsiders. It was seen as necessary measures for survival.

According to Papylamo, based on Sharlayan teaching, all of nature has a measure of Elemental sentience. This is concentrated most heavily in, as some others have pointed out, one of the most naturally dense places on Eorzea, the Twelveswood. What would any life do, but follow its most basic instinct to protect itself? Elementals are instinct incarnate.

Spoken in the Twelveswood

I would examine the system of Gridania and the surrounding settlements related to it, as being a modified symbiotic relationship. The forest saw benefit in interacting with the Moogles. What that was, I have no idea, and doubt we'll ever be able to examine it from a story point of view. However, they formed a very basic tribal relationship.

The Moogles saw the attempts of the Elezen, the Ixal, the Hyur and then all of the remaining immigrations to live in the forest, and saw the forest rebuff them. It was a very good response, left unchecked Spoken tend to be rather destructive. The Moogles went and served as a mediator to allow interaction of the early Elezen and subsequent Hyur settlers, and demonstrated to the Wood how they too could be part of the tribe. This is the lore, a system of truth, falsity, myth, legend, speculation etc. This is what it told us about this early symbiosis. Using verbiage like 'propaganda' to describe this system of lore is a bit disingenuous, it’s the system of knowledge that we have to work with.

We have also been told that, of the Five Races, Elezen settled the forests of Eorzea first. Relative to time 5000 to 1400 years ago Miqo'te began their migration into Eorzea proper. Human migration and settlement began in earnest some 500 years prior to our present time. I'm confident at this point that SE has done some redaction and revamping to the storyline. In my opinion, the Twin Adders concept of Elezen/Hyur communal building isn't what the initial 1.0 lore was hinting to, however history is being rewritten and relative to our characters, that in the new reality. Gridiania is 500 years old or so by this estimation, and was largely the product of Elezen and Hyur. This does not diminish the roles of others such as the Miqo'te and Lalafell (and the comparatively small number of Roegadyn) that have moved in and helped to populate the region since. It is however, the reality of the situation.

Since someone brought up the Duskwrights, I'd say specifically given the ability to come out of the caves of Gelmorra with the other Elezen and make pacts and peace with the Elementals, they chose as a people to continue outside this system in the Shroud. It would be very natural as people to treat those that spurn peace and unity as outsiders and eventually to develop negative feelings and hostility toward them.

Elemental Religion

I like that they captured the essence of nature/religion symbiosis in much the same way that we would speak were this real, with a religious tone. There are prescribed rituals of dance, and offering. There are festivals to please them, methods to appease them, rites to evoke them, rules to avoid their wrath. I stood in Old Mih Khetto's Amphitheater, before the Calamity, wearing a mask fitted with a jewel and the prescribed rituals and I danced there to receive remission of my Greenwrath, not that anyone remembers. There is definitely a religious quality to the experience of interacting with the Elementals.

The people of Gridania are syncretistic-polytheists, however. There is room in their philosophy for Hydaelyn to be the Mother of the World, for the Matron to be their patron, guide and support, and for the preservation and the honoring of the Will of the Elementals, apparently given the wood by Nophica, or so I've been told.

Interestingly, Hydaelyn is allowing us to reside in Her world, The Twelve are letting the Five reside in their Land, and the Elementals allow the Gridanians to reside in their Wood. These syncretistic, symbiotic, and covenantal relationships are a repeated theme: I'll let you live here, but I expect this. Its very old school theology, the basic covenant.

Looking at it in a New Light

I will say, after logging a lot of quests in Gridania, both before and after the Calamity, that only the most ignorant of Gridanians sees the Elementals in terms of true godhood style divinity. I think they have a deep, almost religious respect, and they clearly revere and fear their power. However, I do not think they believe they are gods in the classical Western sense that many of us would understand the Twelve to be.

Its difficult for some Westerners to split these theological hairs, but in Eastern religious concepts spirits are everywhere, and they are seen in this religious light: Worthy of respect, reverence, honor, ritual. They are not omnipotent world shaping luminaries of our pantheons. Nothing like the Egyptian Ennead or Ogdoad, nor warrior divines forging reality from nothingness like the Aesir, nor divine children shaping reality from chaos like the Olympians, and are certainly not like Semitic or Arabic representations of supreme divinity. Gridanian Elementals are spirits in a very Eastern way, and the customs that form around them will be very similar.

The Padjal are not the priests of the West, they have far more in keeping with a priest of the East. The Elementals are not gods or divines, but spirits seeking to protect their own. Look at these things that way and you'll likely understand Gridania a good deal better.

If you understand Japanese culture and history and how it works, see your Keeper in light of being a second or third generation European, after having made first contact with Japan. It took quite a while for the insular thinking to give way to syncretism but it happened. Japan has since learned to radically love and include a great many Western concepts. In much the same way Fufucha is a vital part of the life and society of Gridania, as is a certain young Miqo'te lass in the archer's guild.

An Example in Closing

Pawah Mujuuk, a poacher from the story seen as an outsider and hunted for their abuse of this system is a perfect example. They not included in Gridanian society. They are a poacher and a thief. Lets look at it another way. The Dutch move into a region of Japan in the early parts of the Edo era and start attacking the priests of a Shinto temple who are trying to keep them from poaching their livestock, and destroying their fields. The locals would likely hire and send ronin and members of the military would be sent as well. Gridania hires adventurers and sends the Wailers and the Quivers.

For me, looking at Gridania not from the gabbing and gossip of a few smallfolk, but from getting to know the people in charge changed my mind on a great many things. Also, viewing it from an Eastern standpoint gave me a huge, "Ah ha!" moment, and made me love the land even more.

[Kaiser-Ace]

Snip.

I love this post, I really do. It points out the very real fact that the Elementals are clearly mortal beings of an aetherial nature as well as them being powerful enough to fear but not so all powerful that they can not be defied (All though at full strength I don't think you'd live long after pissing them off).

I also liked the comparisons to Shinto beliefs. For those unfamiliar with the term "Ronen" a Ronen is a swordsmen with no master or for lack of a better term a mercenary as we adventurers are in Eorzia.

I still hold a simple belief that, like all who have power, that there are some in Gridania that willingly abuse their power through the name of the Elementals just as there are people that misuse the names of deities and religions IRL for their own gain. But the real concern is how much power would those people have?

Between The Rouge Guild and The Admiral in Limsa Lominsa the Pirates are kept in check either by their own volition or at the Rouge's knife point while looking down the barrel of The Admiral's pistols.
Ul'dah how ever has corruption running so deep that the monarch, Nannamo, herself has little to no power in her own nation thus leaving her in the very dangerous situation of having few people on her side and not being able to trust but a few amongst them.
Now the big question, since it's inevitably there some where, How far does Gridania's Corruption go? Is it put down by force where ever it appears like in Limsa? Does is run so deep that the very foundation of Gridanian Society is based off of a lie? Is is simply a small, well hidden faction with no real power? Or does it not exist at all? This is the Million Gil Question about Gridanian Society. Kan-E Senna is The Elderseed Seer chosen by the Elementals them selves and The Commander of The Twin Adders Grand Company so chosen by the Gridanian People. So she represents the Ultimate balance between the Enlightened Races and The Elementals them selves and acts as the over all protector of The Twelves Wood who uses her power to bring peace and harmony between Gridania, The Elementals, AND the world out side The Twelves Wood. So assuming there is corruption it's likely in opposition to her will, but with the Elementals in Every thing and able to speak to her directly would it even be possible to oppose her with out her knowing? And if she knows then she either allows it because it's of no grave consequence (Aka a few bad apples not worthy of time) or would be able to put them down before they could become a serious threat.

[RolandDebreton]

I think the corruption in Gridania is deep, ancient animosity worked out from the natural order the Elementals have set. I don't think its a coodinated corruption like the Syndicate, nor is it a group, like the pirates. Its individuals with bias born from their natural system.

Think about the leaders, the Seedseers all seem like very nice people, very enlightened and despite being the arbiters of the very primal Elementals, they are worldly and agreeable to working with other nations. Heck, Kan-E-Senna actively pushed to start the Eorzean Alliance. In the guilds, while they are more simple folk, people like Luciane are opened and cosmopolitan enough to aid foreign adventurers etc. Influence pettlers, like Miounne, are also friendly, opened, and helpful to outsiders.

Really, its just the grumpy small folk, and their small ways and small perspectives. Despite being the "smallfolk" they are the most abundant folk. Whether its the small minded Conjurer initiate far removed from the level headed E-Sumi-Yan, or the surly botanist, or the superstitious villager.

Frankly, there just is no grand villainy a foot in the Black Shroud. Its just an intrinsically defensive system of governance in the that turns people off. We as players are the ones that are putting our judgments of how things ought to be onto another system. I keep seeing a cultural imperialistism towards Gridania. We "get" the government of Limsa and Ul'dah, we understand corrupt politicians and thievery and cutthroat politics. Aren't we enlightened! However, we just don't understand the covenant spiritism that guides the Shroud and it spooks us. Its different and not Western. The biggest boogy man in the Shroud, (besides the actual one in Amdapor Keep), is just backwards people. Just that simple.

[Kaiser-Ace]

Hmmm, interesting. So the corruption lies not in a deliberate malevolence or hidden chaos (like the syndicate and pirate factions to continue the examples) but actually an almost primeval mutual mistrust between the Esoteric-esq Gridanians and the more profit and prestige oriented outsiders ( The Ul'dahns, Limsans, and even us Adventurers) that leads to an almost passive hostility towards each other that over hundreds of years has developed into harsh and unforgiving stereotypes and prejudices that can potentially turn into violent confrontations instigated by either side or both like when the wood wailers raid the Red Belly and Coural Claw camps and vis versa.

Quite an insight when you think of it that way.

[FJerome]

Frankly, there just is no grand villainy a foot in the Black Shroud. Its just an intrinsically defensive system of governance in the that turns people off. We as players are the ones that are putting our judgments of how things ought to be onto another system. I keep seeing a cultural imperialistism towards Gridania. We "get" the government of Limsa and Ul'dah, we understand corrupt politicians and thievery and cutthroat politics. Aren't we enlightened! However, we just don't understand the covenant spiritism that guides the Shroud and it spooks us. Its different and not Western. The biggest boogy man in the Shroud, (besides the actual one in Amdapor Keep), is just backwards people. Just that simple.

Actually I think the opposite of cultural imperialism happens for a lot of players; those of us who pick Keeper Mi'qote and Duskwrights are going to see the racism (archer's guild, lancer's guild, etc.) that Gridania holds against those species. Since the Lore tells us that those selected races also lives in the Shroud, mainly surviving outside Gridanian culture and their pact with the Elementals, I'm not sure what the proper RP response is other than to start believing that's something really wrong with the place?