Level 50 Dungeon Level Syncs

[File2ish]

These altruistic players can find more altruistic players and equip ilvl50-110 gear aside from their best gear without imposing their so-called altruistic beliefs on others. They have all the tools they need ingame already to enjoy old content with restricted ilvl.

They dont want to do but they want others to be forced into doing it. Zero logic.

Nobody wants to equip gear that is worse than their current best. Everyone would rather not have their best gears stats forcibly lowered for old duties. Everyone agrees.

However, there is a point where the stats of the gear exceed the intended item level range of the content to the point where game mechanics no longer matter.

We want to be overpowered, it's certainly fun to be and the gear we get from newer content makes it very easy to be. But there's a point where being so ridiculously overpowered breaks the game mechanics. When the game mechanics can be ignored to the point where they don't even matter, or possibly don't even occur, something is broken and needs to be fixed.

On one hand we have the game designers: the old content is no longer working as intended because player characters have become ridiculously powerful since the old content released, a fix may be in order to balance the game. The duties were designed around these mechanics, their existence is moot if they can be skipped or ignored.

On the other hand we have the player base: we don't want the best gear we earned in the game to be nerfed in any way, shape, or form for any content. We put our time into the game for the gear to be as strong as possible. The gear we earned should allow us to get through the old content as fast and as easily as possible.

This is the dilemma, neither side is illogical.

[Aerowaffle]

Oh but it does. they can use the PF to find exactly what is stated.

Ill lay it out for you.

New Player, wishes to experience that feeling when going through older dungeons.

New player, opens PF, creates a party with the following description. "Running dungeons for the first time, first time bonus included, please only join if you are willing to bend yourself backwards to fullfil my urge for "that feeling" by equipping gear in the range of ilvl 50-110."

Wait for the party to fill.

Only hoop here is making a PF party.

Bam problem solved without imposing restrictions on players that would rather enjoy the fruits of their labor obtained from playing the latest content.



TL DR why would you rather have OTHERS jumping through hoops to fulfill YOUR desire for that feeling Theres a Winner and a Loser in this scenarior. When you can jump through hoops yourself where everyone is a winner in this situation.

The exact same argument could be used if the situation were reversed and duty-finder enforced a strict iLvl.

"Oh you want to quick speed-run through a dungeon? Well you can already do that, just use party-finder and go to the dungeon manually."

Telling people to use party-finder just so they can experience the dungeon properly is essentially giving them the middle finger and telling them to manually find people. Using the party finder to get a group of players to run entry lvl50 content at reasonable iLvl is just asking to wait at least 10x as long for people (assuming you ever get a group). People must actually search for the group in the party finder, and the quests even say, "Use the Duty Finder and finish [dungeon name]".

When the dungeon is so laughably under-leveled compared to the gear of the group, the point of the dungeon is lost. You get a reward for absolutely no challenge. And that's what you're fighting for, you're fighting to keep your method of farming rewards while practically sleeping at the keyboard. You sound like you would fight for the option to just have a "Wait 20 min for your reward" option instead of doing the duty roulette.

Rude or not, they're too late

Alienating new players for the sake of people that are grinding at end-game is a great way to kill the game. MMOs need new players to continue functioning.

[Raist]

You have to understand though that eventually the lower level content may become completely irrelevant to end-game players, and then there will be too much disincentive to help newer/lower level players get through that older content.

Hate to bring up this games predecessor again, but it provides a good example. FFXI's Airship fight section of one of the story lines. There are a series of quests/fights all leading up to unlocking access to Sea--and all of them are level capped. Originally, any gear over the cap would be simply stripped off of you (they later implemented level synch so you didn't have to have alternative gear). If you didn't have a supportive group of friends/LS mates willing to set aside large chunks of time to walk you through these runs in gimped (or later synched) gear... you had to sit around and shout for these "altruistic" players to help them out. It could take some players an entire weekend just to knock out one or two of the major runs because no one wanted to be forced to do level 60 or lower content when they were in psuedo god-mode at 75 with top end-gear equipment and merits. But... after SE unlocked player level caps (eventually letting us hit 99) and also uncapped these areas and fights, they only needed one person or at worst two for most of this content to help them get through it. Two pet jobs could faceroll about 90% of the then older content if they were decently geared and knew their jobs. And suddenly everyone had access to Sea, Sky, Dynamis, finished TAU and WotG story lines.... and the newbies got lots of help casually without having to shout around town all day.

The point, in case you missed it, was that penalizing the players too much with level synch/cap hurts the lower level/newer players you guys keep trying to champion. It's not a theory... there is clear precedent for it... and we are seeing it being played out to some degree already at the current ilevel restrictions. And you guys want them to drop them lower?

Those who forget their history are destined to one day repeat it....

[Aerowaffle]

You have to understand though that eventually the lower level content may become completely irrelevant to end-game players, and then there will be too much disincentive to help newer/lower level players get through that older content.

Which is why SE has the duty roulette, to provide incentive for high lvl/iLvl players to run content that would normally provide no benefits. And that's why I recommend some sort of scaling reward. Just like you get a reward amount suitable to your level when doing low-lvl duty-roulette pre-lvl50, do something similar based off of iLvl.

[Raist]

Which is why SE has the duty roulette, to provide incentive for high lvl/iLvl players to run content that would normally provide no benefits. And that's why I recommend some sort of scaling reward. Just like you get a reward amount suitable to your level when doing low-lvl duty-roulette pre-lvl50, do something similar based off of iLvl.

And eventually, those same roulette that they are running will likely no longer be relevant enough to help those same lower level players. Consider the end-game player that has achieved their wanted shinies from the latest content, and has completed their relic already. Expert is the last 3 dungeons added... everything else is moved back to high or low roulette. The only "incentive" for them at that point is basically poetics or glamours for secondary jobs. 6 Experts, once a day caps poetics. Unless they want to rush to cap them, not much incentive there to do anything else that might assist new players. Any other form of currency can be farmed via alternative methods--with little to no chance of assisting new players there either. And if they want gear to glamour... they may have to spam spam spam a dungeon to get it, and may not even be using roullete, but spamming select dungeons---and they likely won't have the patience for a lot of hand-holding either. If it gets too tedious, they may just give up on glamouring those items, especially if they get wind of an even more attractive set on the horizon in upcoming content.

We are already on the cusp of a lot of this older content becoming irrelevant to a growing sector of the player base. And there is so much potential for it to become even more irrelevant to a larger group of players once 3.0 hits. If they really want them to run this older content to help older players... the LAST thing they need to do is ramp up more restrictions on the content.

[Ashkendor]

We are already on the cusp of a lot of this older content becoming irrelevant to a growing sector of the player base. And there is so much potential for it to become even more irrelevant to a larger group of players once 3.0 hits. If they really want them to run this older content to help older players... the LAST thing they need to do is ramp up more restrictions on the content.

Exactly. There's a point at which additional soldiery/poetics simply won't tempt many players. Poetics are easy to cap in minimal time. The game practically grabs you and says HERE HAVE SOME SOLDIERY at every turn right now. I know I cap without realizing it several times a week and end up having to go buy soldiery mats and maps just so I'm not wasting it. I don't even really need these things (the mats are cheap as hell on the market board and I can grind out alex via FATEs while I spiritbond) but since I have it, I mayaswell spend the soldiery for something at least vaguely useful. A friend of mine frequently comes into my static's Mumble and asks if anyone needs any kind of soldiery mats because he has literally nothing else that he wants to do with the tomes.

I'm of the belief that making the content "more relevant" via stricter level syncs would simply make most players shrug and avoid it completely. We'd end up with Party Finder full of Zodiac grinders that would rather not end up in a dungeon with new people, no matter how big of a bonus they're getting. Time is more valuable than tomes, so we'd basically end up with Mythflox v2.0. Abandoned queues and newbies that can't even start their relic quests would become the norm; let's face it, nobody wants to run Amdapor Keep at i50-i70 unless they absolutely have to.

[Kosmos992k]

We are already on the cusp of a lot of this older content becoming irrelevant to a growing sector of the player base. And there is so much potential for it to become even more irrelevant to a larger group of players once 3.0 hits. If they really want them to run this older content to help older players... the LAST thing they need to do is ramp up more restrictions on the content.

Immplementing a more effective ilvl sync is not a restriction on the content, it's a way to balance that content so that it still works. Frankly, with what i have seen of this group for whom older content is becomming irrelevant it would be a positive thing if they moved on. Rather like the hunts work better without the overgeared rush, older content will work better with proper balance and an absence of gear locusts.

[Mykll]

(the mats are cheap as hell on the market board and I can grind out alex via FATEs while I spiritbond)

But, Fates Sync you down, unless you are using weapon, full left and rights sides to SB, then you won't notice AS much. But you are still missing some of your abilities at the very least. Why are you not shrugging off any and all Fates and avoiding them completely? Because you want something so SE forces you to re-run old content. If some dungeons REALLY become empty, SE will just make relic 3.5 steps go back into pre-level 50 dungeons, make the process up upgrading you weapon even MORE weird by fighting yet even weaker enemies, all so that no matter what you want to do in the game (I guess except zerg hunts) SE will forever force you into older content.

let's face it, nobody wants to run Amdapor Keep at i50-i70 unless they absolutely have to.

I don't think the vast majority of those that want stricter syncs wants that. I know I do not, but heck, I'm still mad they took out Bees on Demon Wall. They just think that ilvl 110 makes it way too easy.


I would like stricter syncs. For me personally there is less fun to be had face rolling and never bother moving from any AOEs more boring than working through piles of trash. Guess I am also the same masochist that misses the old EQ camp spots, player driven buffing camps and corpse retrieval services, and that death should have a harsher penalty than simply "try again", woulsn't hate it if you could only loot items for your currently played class/Job, and would absolutely love it if ALL equipment could be at the very least sold to vendors, turned in for GC seals, and SB for material. But even though I think that, I still have a lot of fun in FFXIV. And, even though I think that, again, I do see the other side of it. Some compelling arguments there. I have my opinion but that doesn't make me blind to the other side.

[Ashkendor]

But, Fates Sync you down, unless you are using weapon, full left and rights sides to SB, then you won't notice AS much. But you are still missing some of your abilities at the very least. Why are you not shrugging off any and all Fates and avoiding them completely? Because you want something so SE forces you to re-run old content.

FATES in North Thanalan do not sync you down. We either do FATEs there in a party or do extremely low level ones. Even with the sync, fully geared level 50's typically wreck low level fates in 30-60 seconds.

If some dungeons REALLY become empty, SE will just make relic 3.5 steps go back into pre-level 50 dungeons, make the process up upgrading you weapon even MORE weird by fighting yet even weaker enemies, all so that no matter what you want to do in the game (I guess except zerg hunts) SE will forever force you into older content.

That's what premades are for. I have plenty of friends with Zodiac that I'll be working with. :3

I don't think the vast majority of those that want stricter syncs wants that. I know I do not, but heck, I'm still mad they took out Bees on Demon Wall. They just think that ilvl 110 makes it way too easy.

If it's about "preserving the integrity of the content" then how can you do anything less? Syncing it to i90 or i100 still lets you tear the place to the ground in record time. People were facetanking Imminent Catastrophe even before it got nerfed. People were speed pulling Wanderer's Palace in i90 gear. *shrugs*

And, even though I think that, again, I do see the other side of it. Some compelling arguments there. I have my opinion but that doesn't make me blind to the other side.

I'm glad you aren't completely blind to the other side of it. Honestly, neither am I. I get that people want to let newbies experience the same content that they did, but I don't really feel that there's an efficient way to turn back. I guess there's a kind of a nostalgia thing that goes with it. The content just becomes more and more irrelevant as time goes on, and I feel that making stricter level syncs just makes it less likely new people will be able to even get through it. Some things you just kinda had to be there when it was rolled out.

[Raist]

Immplementing a more effective ilvl sync is not a restriction on the content, it's a way to balance that content so that it still works. Frankly, with what i have seen of this group for whom older content is becomming irrelevant it would be a positive thing if they moved on. Rather like the hunts work better without the overgeared rush, older content will work better with proper balance and an absence of gear locusts.

And again.. missing the point. Level restriction IS a restriction on content--by definition it restricts you to a lower level content level than you otherwise would be without it. This can and typically does lead to a great deterrent for those that have moved on to a certain stage of the game. IT IS ALREADY HAPPENING TO SOME DEGREE AT i110.

Personally, I haven't touched anything below High roulette since the first week of 2.5...and that was only until I unlocked expert. Now I just run that once a day for the tomes and alex map, then I'm chasing lights and Alex/materia for my second weapon until I complete their current stages. Once I'm done with my relics, you may not see me an anything but Expert and CT chains--and that may only hold until I'm done with the Ironworks gear I want. I could care less about glamours, so once I'm done with older content... I'm pretty much done with it unless I desire to help someone run it. I'm pretty sure I'm not alone in that regard. Stepping into a fight with nerfed stats is NOT an incentive to do so, and no.... tomes are not a valid reward to sway me either.

It is not a new problem... I watched it play out to the point where there was about a 40 level gap in content participation with XI playerbase a few years ago, and the only thing that ultimately revived it was to uncap the content. It creates a REAL problem with balance when you clamp down too hard with the level cap until you either manage to create a mass influx of new players to pick up the slack and fill the void left behind when the bulk of the players move on, or you uncap it so that those older players don't mind so much assisting them (or gives them a sandbox to play in for sh!ts and giggles). We've all seen how well SE markets their FF franchise...people aren't exactly standing in line to buy the game, so there may be a problem bringing in enough new players to fill the ranks and keep older content relevant. We've already seen a steep decline in participation at the lower end of the content scale---the only reason some of it gets done in any manner of regularity is because people that want to finish the relic track or Ironworks and such HAVE to do it until they get their KI's and mat's to upgrade. Chances are, once they're done with that requirement, they will be ready to move on to the next new thing and leave the old stuff behind them until someone they know needs help.

Which brings us to Mykll's point further down about SE forcing people back into older content as needed via the relic chain. They risk pushing the players too far with that cheap and annoying gimmick to the point that they just stop doing it. Myself, I'm making two...simply because I started them and want to finish what I started. Every other job has a UAT weapon until I acquire something better as a drop or as a purchase with tomes or whatever method is made available in future content. Granted, I have some RL friends that left the game a while back, and if they come back I will queue with them to help THEM finish their lines, but that may be the extent of it unless it is something to benefit an FC member... but I don't plan on queueing them in DF just for the sake of doing it at that point. I am sure I am not alone in that regard.

It really is that simple. If they push the players too hard with this backwards mentality of forcing them into outdated capped instances to continue piecemeal advancements on their gear, but there is an easier option available that is just as good, or maybe not quite so good but good enough to complete new content (or, shudder the thought, a weapon BETTER then the potential new relic stage)---eventually they WILL stop advancing the relic quest line completely and just move on to the next new shinies made available as a drop or purchased with each new content release.

And... once again, looking back at XI. We saw the EXACT scenarios play out with that games artifact, relic, mythic, magian, and empyrean lines. They figured out there was far more easily attained gear that was good enough to use in the new content. Only the die-hard min/maxers went after the more highly specialized modifications at first, but eventually those got left behind too for the new stuff in the expansion.

All of this has happened before, and it shall all happen again if we are not careful.