Level 50 Dungeon Level Syncs

[Raist]

You have to understand though that eventually the lower level content may become completely irrelevant to end-game players, and then there will be too much disincentive to help newer/lower level players get through that older content.

Hate to bring up this games predecessor again, but it provides a good example. FFXI's Airship fight section of one of the story lines. There are a series of quests/fights all leading up to unlocking access to Sea--and all of them are level capped. Originally, any gear over the cap would be simply stripped off of you (they later implemented level synch so you didn't have to have alternative gear). If you didn't have a supportive group of friends/LS mates willing to set aside large chunks of time to walk you through these runs in gimped (or later synched) gear... you had to sit around and shout for these "altruistic" players to help them out. It could take some players an entire weekend just to knock out one or two of the major runs because no one wanted to be forced to do level 60 or lower content when they were in psuedo god-mode at 75 with top end-gear equipment and merits. But... after SE unlocked player level caps (eventually letting us hit 99) and also uncapped these areas and fights, they only needed one person or at worst two for most of this content to help them get through it. Two pet jobs could faceroll about 90% of the then older content if they were decently geared and knew their jobs. And suddenly everyone had access to Sea, Sky, Dynamis, finished TAU and WotG story lines.... and the newbies got lots of help casually without having to shout around town all day.

The point, in case you missed it, was that penalizing the players too much with level synch/cap hurts the lower level/newer players you guys keep trying to champion. It's not a theory... there is clear precedent for it... and we are seeing it being played out to some degree already at the current ilevel restrictions. And you guys want them to drop them lower?

Those who forget their history are destined to one day repeat it....

[Aerowaffle]

You have to understand though that eventually the lower level content may become completely irrelevant to end-game players, and then there will be too much disincentive to help newer/lower level players get through that older content.

Which is why SE has the duty roulette, to provide incentive for high lvl/iLvl players to run content that would normally provide no benefits. And that's why I recommend some sort of scaling reward. Just like you get a reward amount suitable to your level when doing low-lvl duty-roulette pre-lvl50, do something similar based off of iLvl.

[Raist]

Which is why SE has the duty roulette, to provide incentive for high lvl/iLvl players to run content that would normally provide no benefits. And that's why I recommend some sort of scaling reward. Just like you get a reward amount suitable to your level when doing low-lvl duty-roulette pre-lvl50, do something similar based off of iLvl.

And eventually, those same roulette that they are running will likely no longer be relevant enough to help those same lower level players. Consider the end-game player that has achieved their wanted shinies from the latest content, and has completed their relic already. Expert is the last 3 dungeons added... everything else is moved back to high or low roulette. The only "incentive" for them at that point is basically poetics or glamours for secondary jobs. 6 Experts, once a day caps poetics. Unless they want to rush to cap them, not much incentive there to do anything else that might assist new players. Any other form of currency can be farmed via alternative methods--with little to no chance of assisting new players there either. And if they want gear to glamour... they may have to spam spam spam a dungeon to get it, and may not even be using roullete, but spamming select dungeons---and they likely won't have the patience for a lot of hand-holding either. If it gets too tedious, they may just give up on glamouring those items, especially if they get wind of an even more attractive set on the horizon in upcoming content.

We are already on the cusp of a lot of this older content becoming irrelevant to a growing sector of the player base. And there is so much potential for it to become even more irrelevant to a larger group of players once 3.0 hits. If they really want them to run this older content to help older players... the LAST thing they need to do is ramp up more restrictions on the content.

[Ashkendor]

We are already on the cusp of a lot of this older content becoming irrelevant to a growing sector of the player base. And there is so much potential for it to become even more irrelevant to a larger group of players once 3.0 hits. If they really want them to run this older content to help older players... the LAST thing they need to do is ramp up more restrictions on the content.

Exactly. There's a point at which additional soldiery/poetics simply won't tempt many players. Poetics are easy to cap in minimal time. The game practically grabs you and says HERE HAVE SOME SOLDIERY at every turn right now. I know I cap without realizing it several times a week and end up having to go buy soldiery mats and maps just so I'm not wasting it. I don't even really need these things (the mats are cheap as hell on the market board and I can grind out alex via FATEs while I spiritbond) but since I have it, I mayaswell spend the soldiery for something at least vaguely useful. A friend of mine frequently comes into my static's Mumble and asks if anyone needs any kind of soldiery mats because he has literally nothing else that he wants to do with the tomes.

I'm of the belief that making the content "more relevant" via stricter level syncs would simply make most players shrug and avoid it completely. We'd end up with Party Finder full of Zodiac grinders that would rather not end up in a dungeon with new people, no matter how big of a bonus they're getting. Time is more valuable than tomes, so we'd basically end up with Mythflox v2.0. Abandoned queues and newbies that can't even start their relic quests would become the norm; let's face it, nobody wants to run Amdapor Keep at i50-i70 unless they absolutely have to.

[Mykll]

(the mats are cheap as hell on the market board and I can grind out alex via FATEs while I spiritbond)

But, Fates Sync you down, unless you are using weapon, full left and rights sides to SB, then you won't notice AS much. But you are still missing some of your abilities at the very least. Why are you not shrugging off any and all Fates and avoiding them completely? Because you want something so SE forces you to re-run old content. If some dungeons REALLY become empty, SE will just make relic 3.5 steps go back into pre-level 50 dungeons, make the process up upgrading you weapon even MORE weird by fighting yet even weaker enemies, all so that no matter what you want to do in the game (I guess except zerg hunts) SE will forever force you into older content.

let's face it, nobody wants to run Amdapor Keep at i50-i70 unless they absolutely have to.

I don't think the vast majority of those that want stricter syncs wants that. I know I do not, but heck, I'm still mad they took out Bees on Demon Wall. They just think that ilvl 110 makes it way too easy.


I would like stricter syncs. For me personally there is less fun to be had face rolling and never bother moving from any AOEs more boring than working through piles of trash. Guess I am also the same masochist that misses the old EQ camp spots, player driven buffing camps and corpse retrieval services, and that death should have a harsher penalty than simply "try again", woulsn't hate it if you could only loot items for your currently played class/Job, and would absolutely love it if ALL equipment could be at the very least sold to vendors, turned in for GC seals, and SB for material. But even though I think that, I still have a lot of fun in FFXIV. And, even though I think that, again, I do see the other side of it. Some compelling arguments there. I have my opinion but that doesn't make me blind to the other side.

[Ashkendor]

But, Fates Sync you down, unless you are using weapon, full left and rights sides to SB, then you won't notice AS much. But you are still missing some of your abilities at the very least. Why are you not shrugging off any and all Fates and avoiding them completely? Because you want something so SE forces you to re-run old content.

FATES in North Thanalan do not sync you down. We either do FATEs there in a party or do extremely low level ones. Even with the sync, fully geared level 50's typically wreck low level fates in 30-60 seconds.

If some dungeons REALLY become empty, SE will just make relic 3.5 steps go back into pre-level 50 dungeons, make the process up upgrading you weapon even MORE weird by fighting yet even weaker enemies, all so that no matter what you want to do in the game (I guess except zerg hunts) SE will forever force you into older content.

That's what premades are for. I have plenty of friends with Zodiac that I'll be working with. :3

I don't think the vast majority of those that want stricter syncs wants that. I know I do not, but heck, I'm still mad they took out Bees on Demon Wall. They just think that ilvl 110 makes it way too easy.

If it's about "preserving the integrity of the content" then how can you do anything less? Syncing it to i90 or i100 still lets you tear the place to the ground in record time. People were facetanking Imminent Catastrophe even before it got nerfed. People were speed pulling Wanderer's Palace in i90 gear. *shrugs*

And, even though I think that, again, I do see the other side of it. Some compelling arguments there. I have my opinion but that doesn't make me blind to the other side.

I'm glad you aren't completely blind to the other side of it. Honestly, neither am I. I get that people want to let newbies experience the same content that they did, but I don't really feel that there's an efficient way to turn back. I guess there's a kind of a nostalgia thing that goes with it. The content just becomes more and more irrelevant as time goes on, and I feel that making stricter level syncs just makes it less likely new people will be able to even get through it. Some things you just kinda had to be there when it was rolled out.

[Kosmos992k]

We are already on the cusp of a lot of this older content becoming irrelevant to a growing sector of the player base. And there is so much potential for it to become even more irrelevant to a larger group of players once 3.0 hits. If they really want them to run this older content to help older players... the LAST thing they need to do is ramp up more restrictions on the content.

Immplementing a more effective ilvl sync is not a restriction on the content, it's a way to balance that content so that it still works. Frankly, with what i have seen of this group for whom older content is becomming irrelevant it would be a positive thing if they moved on. Rather like the hunts work better without the overgeared rush, older content will work better with proper balance and an absence of gear locusts.

[Raist]

Immplementing a more effective ilvl sync is not a restriction on the content, it's a way to balance that content so that it still works. Frankly, with what i have seen of this group for whom older content is becomming irrelevant it would be a positive thing if they moved on. Rather like the hunts work better without the overgeared rush, older content will work better with proper balance and an absence of gear locusts.

And again.. missing the point. Level restriction IS a restriction on content--by definition it restricts you to a lower level content level than you otherwise would be without it. This can and typically does lead to a great deterrent for those that have moved on to a certain stage of the game. IT IS ALREADY HAPPENING TO SOME DEGREE AT i110.

Personally, I haven't touched anything below High roulette since the first week of 2.5...and that was only until I unlocked expert. Now I just run that once a day for the tomes and alex map, then I'm chasing lights and Alex/materia for my second weapon until I complete their current stages. Once I'm done with my relics, you may not see me an anything but Expert and CT chains--and that may only hold until I'm done with the Ironworks gear I want. I could care less about glamours, so once I'm done with older content... I'm pretty much done with it unless I desire to help someone run it. I'm pretty sure I'm not alone in that regard. Stepping into a fight with nerfed stats is NOT an incentive to do so, and no.... tomes are not a valid reward to sway me either.

It is not a new problem... I watched it play out to the point where there was about a 40 level gap in content participation with XI playerbase a few years ago, and the only thing that ultimately revived it was to uncap the content. It creates a REAL problem with balance when you clamp down too hard with the level cap until you either manage to create a mass influx of new players to pick up the slack and fill the void left behind when the bulk of the players move on, or you uncap it so that those older players don't mind so much assisting them (or gives them a sandbox to play in for sh!ts and giggles). We've all seen how well SE markets their FF franchise...people aren't exactly standing in line to buy the game, so there may be a problem bringing in enough new players to fill the ranks and keep older content relevant. We've already seen a steep decline in participation at the lower end of the content scale---the only reason some of it gets done in any manner of regularity is because people that want to finish the relic track or Ironworks and such HAVE to do it until they get their KI's and mat's to upgrade. Chances are, once they're done with that requirement, they will be ready to move on to the next new thing and leave the old stuff behind them until someone they know needs help.

Which brings us to Mykll's point further down about SE forcing people back into older content as needed via the relic chain. They risk pushing the players too far with that cheap and annoying gimmick to the point that they just stop doing it. Myself, I'm making two...simply because I started them and want to finish what I started. Every other job has a UAT weapon until I acquire something better as a drop or as a purchase with tomes or whatever method is made available in future content. Granted, I have some RL friends that left the game a while back, and if they come back I will queue with them to help THEM finish their lines, but that may be the extent of it unless it is something to benefit an FC member... but I don't plan on queueing them in DF just for the sake of doing it at that point. I am sure I am not alone in that regard.

It really is that simple. If they push the players too hard with this backwards mentality of forcing them into outdated capped instances to continue piecemeal advancements on their gear, but there is an easier option available that is just as good, or maybe not quite so good but good enough to complete new content (or, shudder the thought, a weapon BETTER then the potential new relic stage)---eventually they WILL stop advancing the relic quest line completely and just move on to the next new shinies made available as a drop or purchased with each new content release.

And... once again, looking back at XI. We saw the EXACT scenarios play out with that games artifact, relic, mythic, magian, and empyrean lines. They figured out there was far more easily attained gear that was good enough to use in the new content. Only the die-hard min/maxers went after the more highly specialized modifications at first, but eventually those got left behind too for the new stuff in the expansion.

All of this has happened before, and it shall all happen again if we are not careful.

[Kosmos992k]

And again.. missing the point. Level restriction IS a restriction on content--by definition it restricts you to a lower level content level than you otherwise would be without it.

No. ilvl sync does not restrict your level, nor does it in any way restrict you to lower level content. What it does is restore game balance by preventing excessive overgearing of content.

Personally, I haven't touched anything below High roulette since the first week of 2.5...and that was only until I unlocked expert. Now I just run that once a day for the tomes and alex map, then I'm chasing lights and Alex/materia for my second weapon until I complete their current stages. Once I'm done with my relics, you may not see me an anything but Expert and CT chains--and that may only hold until I'm done with the Ironworks gear I want. I could care less about glamours, so once I'm done with older content... I'm pretty much done with it unless I desire to help someone run it. I'm pretty sure I'm not alone in that regard.

Great. thank you for that. So, if what you say is true, why would a more effective ilvl sync have any more impact tha the disinterest of players such as yourself already has? If you and those who think like you are already avoiding such content, what does it matter to you if there is a more effective level sync?

Stepping into a fight with nerfed stats is NOT an incentive to do so, and no.... tomes are not a valid reward to sway me either.

I'm going to presume then that you never participate in any FATE below your level? As for tomes not being an incentive. I'm sure that it must be great not to need/want any more tomes, once again though, it underlines the point that the content we are discussing is not very relevant to you already, applying a more effective ilvl sync would not in any way alter your calculation of whether it's worth participating in it, and nor would it alter that for any other players like you - since you don't do that content anyway, and you don't want/need the tomes.

It is not a new problem...

Fatigue among high level veteran players at end-game? Sure, that's not a new issue, it's always going to be an issue. Here is an alternate viewpoint though. I've watched this same thing play out where veteran players burned themselves out on lower level content and became so overpowered that the low level content provided no challenge. The result was a large group of high level players bored to tears running lower level dungeons because they could ignore everything, one shot trash and melt the boss. The overpowering of content by both level and gear ultimately meant that those players got pissed off whenever any new/low level player asked to run some lower level dungeon, or they'd run it, and the new player would get pissed off because they got dragged through the dungeon without any input and were both bored and alienated from the game.

Oh, and just so you know, there were some dungeons with two or even three levels of difficulty, the low level version might (for instance) be level 30, and the high level one might be level 50. The high level players were far, far more apt to run the harder version than the lower one because there was zero challenge in the lower one. To me, that is an absolute demonstration that for the same content if the degree of difficulty is preserved to some extent, people are more likely, not less likely, to play it.

The level sync in the pre-50 dungeons is one of the best things that SE has done with the game because it preserves some degree of the original dungeon.

Which brings us to Mykll's point further down about SE forcing people back into older content as needed via the relic chain. They risk pushing the players too far with that cheap and annoying gimmick to the point that they just stop doing it.

Except that the relic weapon quest was expressly designed to be a long grind as an alternative for players who were not running coil, or extreme primals, allowing those players a path to upgrade, simply by playing over time. It was not designed to be rushed by speedrunning certain content into oblivion, that is unfortunately how many people play it. It makes me wonder though, if these players already have the raid level gear, why are they bothering with the relics? Given their gear, those are optional to them. In which case, they can hardly bitch about having to re-run content for items that are in terms of their gear are side grades. Again, the relic quest line was designed to be a long term grind. If anything, the players speed running and grinding it into oblivion are making it harder for everyone else because the acquisition rate of upgraded relics forces SE to make each stage extremely grindy to slow the players down. Thanks for that by the way.

It really is that simple. If they push the players too hard with this backwards mentality of forcing them into outdated capped instances to continue piecemeal advancements on their gear, but there is an easier option available that is just as good, or maybe not quite so good but good enough to complete new content (or, shudder the thought, a weapon BETTER then the potential new relic stage)---eventually they WILL stop advancing the relic quest line completely and just move on to the next new shinies made available as a drop or purchased with each new content release.

This actually argues against your stance. The point of the relic quest line was to be an alternative to the raid and EX mode weapons for players who were NOT (for whatever reason) running coil or EX primals. It is specifically designed as a way of allowing people who just play the regular content to have an upgrade path for their gear. The people who will move on to the other gear will move on to it anyway, the people who the relic upgrade quests were designed for will continue plugging away at the game and upgrade their stuff in due time.

All of this has happened before, and it shall all happen again if we are not careful.

Love the doom laden comment, you sound so much like a soothsayer of old. Doom and gloom aside, I believe that* you are very wrong. In my opinion*, you've missed the point that there are 3 avenues of gear acquisition in the game. What you suggest does little more than funnel everyone into one of two alternate ways of getting gear, and a large portion of the player base has already demonstrated that they do not want to go either of those paths. Kindly leave the third path alone.

* - added to make it crystal clear that I am stating my opinion that your arguments are wrong.