Level 50 Dungeon Level Syncs

[Ashkendor]

We are already on the cusp of a lot of this older content becoming irrelevant to a growing sector of the player base. And there is so much potential for it to become even more irrelevant to a larger group of players once 3.0 hits. If they really want them to run this older content to help older players... the LAST thing they need to do is ramp up more restrictions on the content.

Exactly. There's a point at which additional soldiery/poetics simply won't tempt many players. Poetics are easy to cap in minimal time. The game practically grabs you and says HERE HAVE SOME SOLDIERY at every turn right now. I know I cap without realizing it several times a week and end up having to go buy soldiery mats and maps just so I'm not wasting it. I don't even really need these things (the mats are cheap as hell on the market board and I can grind out alex via FATEs while I spiritbond) but since I have it, I mayaswell spend the soldiery for something at least vaguely useful. A friend of mine frequently comes into my static's Mumble and asks if anyone needs any kind of soldiery mats because he has literally nothing else that he wants to do with the tomes.

I'm of the belief that making the content "more relevant" via stricter level syncs would simply make most players shrug and avoid it completely. We'd end up with Party Finder full of Zodiac grinders that would rather not end up in a dungeon with new people, no matter how big of a bonus they're getting. Time is more valuable than tomes, so we'd basically end up with Mythflox v2.0. Abandoned queues and newbies that can't even start their relic quests would become the norm; let's face it, nobody wants to run Amdapor Keep at i50-i70 unless they absolutely have to.

[Mykll]

(the mats are cheap as hell on the market board and I can grind out alex via FATEs while I spiritbond)

But, Fates Sync you down, unless you are using weapon, full left and rights sides to SB, then you won't notice AS much. But you are still missing some of your abilities at the very least. Why are you not shrugging off any and all Fates and avoiding them completely? Because you want something so SE forces you to re-run old content. If some dungeons REALLY become empty, SE will just make relic 3.5 steps go back into pre-level 50 dungeons, make the process up upgrading you weapon even MORE weird by fighting yet even weaker enemies, all so that no matter what you want to do in the game (I guess except zerg hunts) SE will forever force you into older content.

let's face it, nobody wants to run Amdapor Keep at i50-i70 unless they absolutely have to.

I don't think the vast majority of those that want stricter syncs wants that. I know I do not, but heck, I'm still mad they took out Bees on Demon Wall. They just think that ilvl 110 makes it way too easy.


I would like stricter syncs. For me personally there is less fun to be had face rolling and never bother moving from any AOEs more boring than working through piles of trash. Guess I am also the same masochist that misses the old EQ camp spots, player driven buffing camps and corpse retrieval services, and that death should have a harsher penalty than simply "try again", woulsn't hate it if you could only loot items for your currently played class/Job, and would absolutely love it if ALL equipment could be at the very least sold to vendors, turned in for GC seals, and SB for material. But even though I think that, I still have a lot of fun in FFXIV. And, even though I think that, again, I do see the other side of it. Some compelling arguments there. I have my opinion but that doesn't make me blind to the other side.

[Kosmos992k]

We are already on the cusp of a lot of this older content becoming irrelevant to a growing sector of the player base. And there is so much potential for it to become even more irrelevant to a larger group of players once 3.0 hits. If they really want them to run this older content to help older players... the LAST thing they need to do is ramp up more restrictions on the content.

Immplementing a more effective ilvl sync is not a restriction on the content, it's a way to balance that content so that it still works. Frankly, with what i have seen of this group for whom older content is becomming irrelevant it would be a positive thing if they moved on. Rather like the hunts work better without the overgeared rush, older content will work better with proper balance and an absence of gear locusts.

[Raist]

Immplementing a more effective ilvl sync is not a restriction on the content, it's a way to balance that content so that it still works. Frankly, with what i have seen of this group for whom older content is becomming irrelevant it would be a positive thing if they moved on. Rather like the hunts work better without the overgeared rush, older content will work better with proper balance and an absence of gear locusts.

And again.. missing the point. Level restriction IS a restriction on content--by definition it restricts you to a lower level content level than you otherwise would be without it. This can and typically does lead to a great deterrent for those that have moved on to a certain stage of the game. IT IS ALREADY HAPPENING TO SOME DEGREE AT i110.

Personally, I haven't touched anything below High roulette since the first week of 2.5...and that was only until I unlocked expert. Now I just run that once a day for the tomes and alex map, then I'm chasing lights and Alex/materia for my second weapon until I complete their current stages. Once I'm done with my relics, you may not see me an anything but Expert and CT chains--and that may only hold until I'm done with the Ironworks gear I want. I could care less about glamours, so once I'm done with older content... I'm pretty much done with it unless I desire to help someone run it. I'm pretty sure I'm not alone in that regard. Stepping into a fight with nerfed stats is NOT an incentive to do so, and no.... tomes are not a valid reward to sway me either.

It is not a new problem... I watched it play out to the point where there was about a 40 level gap in content participation with XI playerbase a few years ago, and the only thing that ultimately revived it was to uncap the content. It creates a REAL problem with balance when you clamp down too hard with the level cap until you either manage to create a mass influx of new players to pick up the slack and fill the void left behind when the bulk of the players move on, or you uncap it so that those older players don't mind so much assisting them (or gives them a sandbox to play in for sh!ts and giggles). We've all seen how well SE markets their FF franchise...people aren't exactly standing in line to buy the game, so there may be a problem bringing in enough new players to fill the ranks and keep older content relevant. We've already seen a steep decline in participation at the lower end of the content scale---the only reason some of it gets done in any manner of regularity is because people that want to finish the relic track or Ironworks and such HAVE to do it until they get their KI's and mat's to upgrade. Chances are, once they're done with that requirement, they will be ready to move on to the next new thing and leave the old stuff behind them until someone they know needs help.

Which brings us to Mykll's point further down about SE forcing people back into older content as needed via the relic chain. They risk pushing the players too far with that cheap and annoying gimmick to the point that they just stop doing it. Myself, I'm making two...simply because I started them and want to finish what I started. Every other job has a UAT weapon until I acquire something better as a drop or as a purchase with tomes or whatever method is made available in future content. Granted, I have some RL friends that left the game a while back, and if they come back I will queue with them to help THEM finish their lines, but that may be the extent of it unless it is something to benefit an FC member... but I don't plan on queueing them in DF just for the sake of doing it at that point. I am sure I am not alone in that regard.

It really is that simple. If they push the players too hard with this backwards mentality of forcing them into outdated capped instances to continue piecemeal advancements on their gear, but there is an easier option available that is just as good, or maybe not quite so good but good enough to complete new content (or, shudder the thought, a weapon BETTER then the potential new relic stage)---eventually they WILL stop advancing the relic quest line completely and just move on to the next new shinies made available as a drop or purchased with each new content release.

And... once again, looking back at XI. We saw the EXACT scenarios play out with that games artifact, relic, mythic, magian, and empyrean lines. They figured out there was far more easily attained gear that was good enough to use in the new content. Only the die-hard min/maxers went after the more highly specialized modifications at first, but eventually those got left behind too for the new stuff in the expansion.

All of this has happened before, and it shall all happen again if we are not careful.

[Tiggy]

Kosmos. You won't make any headway telling people why their opinions are wrong. Their opinions are perfectly valid which serve as counterpoints to your own, and it is clearly a viewpoint shared by many people. The solution isn't to tell them why they are wrong because they aren't. Their opinion, viewpoint, and play styles are just as valid as your own. The solution is to understand their point of view and come up with an answer that works for both sides. Consistently telling people they are wrong and failing to understand them will never get you anywhere. A few pages ago I thought you understood this but I still see you arguing opinions more than searching for solutions.

[Kosmos992k]

Yeah, OK, so, I was kind of under the impression that everything posted to an online forum was opinion, and whenever something is stated as a fact, people are more than welcome to provide a link supporting their statement. Otherwise, opinion is opinion. I can say your opinion is wrong if I think it is. You can quibble that I did not say "In my opinion" first if you like, but I think it's quite well understood that we are all giving opinions.

As for searching for solutions, I already posted what I consider a viable suggestion for a solution. Raist was arguing an opinion based on personal experience, I countered his argument with my own. How is that a problem? It's not a matter of failing to understand what Raist said, I disagree with him, and my own experience says that he's wrong. While your firing at me fir giving my opinion, would you care to direct some of that fire at the gloom laden, and absolute, statements posted by Raist?

Sitting here and telling each other "your opinion is wrong" isn't very constructive, though.

Did you actually read my post? The only place I told Raist that he was wrong was with regard to his final paragraph. It rather seems that both you and Tiggy would rather argue about this than discuss the actual content of the post. And I do think that Raist is wrong in his last paragraph, I fail to see how saying so is so incredibly provocative to you both, unless it's simply easier to side track the discussion that way.

[Ashkendor]

Otherwise, opinion is opinion. I can say your opinion is wrong if I think it is.

Sitting here and telling each other "your opinion is wrong" isn't very constructive, though. It doesn't accomplish anything aside from making people on both sides of things frustrated. I'm wrong to you and you're wrong to me; if we're both wrong, why are we even having a discussion in the first place? If we want to accomplish anything, we have to at least accept the other person has a differing viewpoint and find a way to compromise. Our opinions are just as valid as yours. Arguments and discussions don't have winners and losers. This isn't about countering arguments and figuring out who's "right" and by extension whose solution is "right". It's not about painting our point of view in a positive light and the opposing point of view in a negative light. It's about the different ways that people see a particular issue, and discussing whether there's a way we can meet in the middle.

We all play the game for different reasons, so SE has to do their best to accomodate the majority.

[Tiggy]

Sitting here and telling each other "your opinion is wrong" isn't very constructive, though. It doesn't accomplish anything aside from making people on both sides of things frustrated. I'm wrong to you and you're wrong to me; if we're both wrong, why are we even having a discussion in the first place? If we want to accomplish anything, we have to at least accept the other person has a differing viewpoint and find a way to compromise. Our opinions are just as valid as yours. Arguments and discussions don't have winners and losers. This isn't about countering arguments and figuring out who's "right" and by extension whose solution is "right". It's not about painting our point of view in a positive light and the opposing point of view in a negative light. It's about the different ways that people see a particular issue, and discussing whether there's a way we can meet in the middle.

We all play the game for different reasons, so SE has to do their best to accomodate the majority.

Exactly this.

[Ashkendor]

unless it's simply easier to side track the discussion that way.

There are much easier ways to sidetrack a discussion. I'm actually here to discuss the issue and don't care to see other people who are just as entitled to express their opinion as the rest of us be driven off by people focusing more on semantics and who is in the right than on the discussion itself. We agree to disagree. Let's make things better.

(I had to lol)

I'd say the problem there is that the designers intend for the content to get easier over time. They've said so on numerous occasions that it is a design goal to do so. So chances are the default would be level sync off with the optional challenge of the level sync. In order to entice people into doing it is why I thought the extra loot thing might be nice. Give all those other players a reason to run the dungeon slower than normal. Most people aren't altruistic enough to just do it for funsies. Give them something to farm for. Crafting mats are a prime candidate here.

Yup. It makes sense that the difficulty wouldn't stay static as time goes on. The nature of upward progression is that eventually your earlier content becomes all but obsolete. I wouldn't be surprised if they phased some of the dungeons out of the actual storyline at 3.0 (let's face it, they create choke points that can be difficult for newer people to get past). I've liked the crafting mats too, honestly. I know I've spammed my share of T4 for lights/mats/spiritbonding. I've run T1/2 in the DF a bunch and jumped in several T5 clear parties now just for the soldiery and a chance at crafting mats and desynthables. It was a step in the right direction.

The soldiery bonus to me was a great expirement in trying different rewards for old content. Thousands of people have gotten wins due to the demands for soldiery. Adding crafting mats to turns 1-5 is another great example. Suddenly I was running coil 1 all over again helping people.

I know my static has done multiple clear parties. Put a party up in party finder: you bring your soldiery bonus, we clear it for you. The offer was open to T1-8 and EX primals. T9 is a different animal altogether. The soldiery bonus is nice, but after a certain point it's not worth it. When the trial is extremely hard won, that 100 soldiery looks like a pittance when you compare it against the time and effort you put into it.

Make the level synced dungeons an optional challenge with unique loot rewards for that challenge. You'll get people flocking to the dungeons for that new gear, and because of the level sync only so much speed running would be possible getting the dungeons back in line with their original difficulty.

I'd possibly go for new gear, as long as it was nice. I do like my glamours.

My only hope would be that the level-synced versions would be back at their old difficulties since many have been nerfed mechanically not just via ilevel. So even with the level sync applied we still won't see demon wall with hornets and that means we'd still be missing out on the original experience.

Haha. If this happened... we'd see forum posts "omg level synced AK is too hard, nerf pls"

[Raist]

Raist was arguing an opinion based on personal experience, I countered his argument with my own.

Not so much opinion as fact... or do you not understand what a precedent is?

prec·e·dent
noun
noun: precedent; plural noun: precedents
ˈpresəd(ə)nt/

1.
an earlier event or action that is regarded as an example or guide to be considered in subsequent similar circumstances.
"there are substantial precedents for using interactive media in training"
synonyms: model, exemplar, example, pattern, previous case, prior instance/example

That is why I coined that phrase... because it is a recurring problem throughout of all history. If we are not mindful of the mistakes made in the past, we risk the danger of repeating them. The same applies to successes as well. SE let the harsh restrictions linger too long in XI, and the playerbase (and subscription retention) suffered greatly for it. But, when they provided us a means to manually synch our levels on demand and lifted the caps, they almost instantly revived the game.

So yes... forcing a level synch is restrictive (and not only as a side effect from our human nature, but it is so by it's most basic definition), and as an end result it can lead to more problems than it is meant to correct if not managed properly. Alternatives have been offered by several others that may sufficiently counter what you have lobbied for (approaches that have been shown in the past to be more detrimental then beneficial).

But... if you aren't a student of such history, I guess you may never come to understand the value of those lessons that many of us have already learned.