Alexander

[Darkstride]

I'll believe Ramuh isn't a bad primal when a reasonable explanation is given to why he tempered (stole the free will from) almost an entire species of peaceful people.

Wasn't the Sylphs' tempering a result of their summoning him to defend the woods? I seem to recall they knew that was the cost of summoning him to begin with. Correct me if I'm wrong. I don't think Ramuh has the same deliberate intention as Ifrit who just enjoys enthralling people.

[WellFooled]

Wasn't the Sylphs' tempering a result of their summoning him to defend the woods? I seem to recall they knew that was the cost of summoning him to begin with. Correct me if I'm wrong. I don't think Ramuh has the same deliberate intention as Ifrit who just enjoys enthralling people.

I looked back at some quest dialogue to double check. Frixio described the event like this:

These ones resorted to summoning Lord Ramuh to protect the wood from Imperial ones. This one counseled against doing so, but was not heeded. Against this ones wishes, Lord Ramuh was summoned...and all those ones who took part became touched ones. Touched ones, meanwhile, wanted to turn these ones into touched ones, and did know how...so this one fled to little Solace with all those ones who did not wish to be bound to Lord Ramuh.

From that description, It could be that the summoning process itself caused the Tempering...but I don't think so, because Frixio also talks about the touched ones trying to get the other Slyphs tempered and since the Slpyhs of Little Solace wouldn't summon Ramuh then the method must not involve summoning. Instead I think it's the same method we've seen in action from other Primals, a deliberate tempering by the Primal itself.

So I take Frixio's description to mean that the Slyphs who summoned Ramuh were immediately tempered by him after he arrived and then they tried to capture non-tempered Slpyhs and bring them to Ramuh to be tempered. Ramuh may have thought he was doing this to them for their own protection, but it still hold that tempering is one of the most evil things that you can do to a person in FFXIV's universe.

[Tayolynn]

I'm excited to fight Alexander tbh. I mean, think about the gear that it'll drop. Coil's final raid set dropped gorgeous Dreadwyrm gear to commemorate Bahamut. Think about what Alexander's gear designs would be to commemorate it in a holy aspect.

THE PRETTIES!

[Sapphic]

I'm excited to fight Alexander tbh. I mean, think about the gear that it'll drop. Coil's final raid set dropped gorgeous Dreadwyrm gear to commemorate Bahamut. Think about what Alexander's gear designs would be to commemorate it in a holy aspect.

THE PRETTIES!

I have this mental images of the armor makin us look like chess pieces XD

[DoctaruRavenbe]

So I take Frixio's description to mean that the Slyphs who summoned Ramuh were immediately tempered by him after he arrived and then they tried to capture non-tempered Slpyhs and bring them to Ramuh to be tempered. Ramuh may have thought he was doing this to them for their own protection, but it still hold that tempering is one of the most evil things that you can do to a person in FFXIV's universe.

actually I remember Fernwhales answering this question at fanfest. He was the one whom stated that the sylphs who summoned Ramuh then also asked him to be tempered.

[Belhi]

Considering the tempered Sylph were kidnaping the untempered Sylph when Ramuh wasn't even summoned, it seems likely that there could be an alternative method of tempering that doesn't involve the primal's direct action.

[lololink]

Considering the tempered Sylph were kidnaping the untempered Sylph when Ramuh wasn't even summoned, it seems likely that there could be an alternative method of tempering that doesn't involve the primal's direct action.

Not really, they summoned him briefly once before 2.0 that's when he tempered the first time at that time Ramuh didn't try to harm anyone and vanished but the sylphs were concerned that if he is summoned again he might use his judgement bolt this time, and then the sylphs tempered each others.

[WellFooled]

actually I remember Fernwhales answering this question at fanfest. He was the one whom stated that the sylphs who summoned Ramuh then also asked him to be tempered.

Man, I totally missed that. Do you by chance have a link to a video or a transcript of this I could check out?

Even with this new info, I still hold Ramuh to be evil though. If someone walked up to you and asked you to take away their free will and replace it with a zealot's desire to worship you, would you say yes if you were a good person?

But...I'm also repeatedly dragging this thread off topic ._. The morality of Ramuh always hits a nerve with me. My apologies everyone.

[Nialle]

Even with this new info, I still hold Ramuh to be evil though. If someone walked up to you and asked you to take away their free will and replace it with a zealot's desire to worship you, would you say yes if you were a good person?.

I've always gotten the impression that Primals are less than 100% autonomous beings, and are manifests of the desires of the people who summon them. So he doesn't have a problem tempering Sylphs because the ones to summoned him want him to do it and he's largely a manifestation their own wills, despite having his own personality to a degree.

[LineageRazor]

From that description, It could be that the summoning process itself caused the Tempering...but I don't think so, because Frixio also talks about the touched ones trying to get the other Slyphs tempered and since the Slpyhs of Little Solace wouldn't summon Ramuh then the method must not involve summoning. Instead I think it's the same method we've seen in action from other Primals, a deliberate tempering by the Primal itself.

From what I've seen in game, I've gathered that there are three ways an individual can become tempered:
- The Primal can do it to you personally. We witness Ifrit doing this to a crowd of people just before we fight him.
- You can take part in summoning a Primal. Frixio's dialogue indicates that is why the Touched Sylphs became Touched.
- Beast tribes can capture you and convert you even without the Primal being summoned. Numerous Beast Tribe daily quests deal with rescuing captured individuals before they can be Tempered - and one in particular involving the Sahagin, you are sent to rescue people knowing SOME but not ALL of them have been Drowned and will need to be put down. Since this quest can be performed BEFORE you fight Leviathan in the Main Scenario (canonically, it has been many years since the last summoning), it's clear that the actual presence of the Primal is not required. (Unless they use a handful of crystals to summon an Egi or something.)

I'd never heard of Fern mentioning that the Touched Sylphs asked Ramuh to Temper them. I can't imagine why they'd do so, but even if that is the case it does not necessarily change any of the above.