3rd Retainer by Default, please?

[Aerowaffle]

I completely disagree with you, there is not a gameplay advantage, there is a convenience factor. If I were unwilling to pay for additional retainers, it would not alter the gameplay at all, I would simply have to alter my priorities as to what materials and gear I keep on hand, and be a bit more organized. Having the additional retainers allows me to be a bit more lazy about my inventory space and flexible since I have the space. That is neither a competitive advantage, nor different gameplay.

Convenience factors are advantages. Your mount is a convenience factor, you can reach any place on foot as you would with a mount, but it's considered an advantage to use a mount over walking because you get to locations quicker.

Just as having more inventory would allow you to be less picky on what you throw away (costing potential gil in the process). Having additional retainers also gives more than just inventory space, it gives a possible advantage on the market by being able to sell more things. More retainers also means more possible items retrieved by ventures.

If the goal is to solve an inventory problem, additional retainers gives more advantages than just larger inventory. An inventory problem should be solved with some sort of new storage chest, or a few more tabs added to retainers in general.

[Kosmos992k]

Convenience factors are advantages.

Convenience, yes. Advantage, no.

There is no gameplay difference or change in game play due to having an additional retainer, it does not affect combat at all, nor does it impact on my ability to gather or craft. It does make inventory management easier for me because I do not discipline my use of inventory space, but that is not a gameplay advantage, it is a concenience.

A single well-managed level 50 MIN/BTN retainer can make 100k+ gil per day. If that's not a gameplay advantage, I don't know what is.

A retainer cannot make anything at all without the player doing something. If the retainer was going out on it's own and making 100K gil without any intervention by the player at all, it might be an advantage, but since the player has to actually do something to make that happen, it's not an advantage, it's simply content to play.

How is that retainer a gameplay advantage? Does it confer any special buffs or capabilities on the player? Does it make them faster on the ground, or able to teleport to any point on the map? Does it give them the ability to ignore attacks? Does it increase their HP? There is no gameplay advantage there.

You could argue that it makes it easier for a player to earn gil on the market boards, but at the end of the day the player still has to work with the game to obtain the gil, it's not automatic. So it's not an advantage, it's a convenience for the player. If you're saying that having the extra gil is an advantage, then every player who was ever fortunate to obtain any random drop that could be sold for millions of gil has an advantage, which is ridiculous.

I know many players who leveled all their crafts to 50 within months of ARR's launch. These players have earned millions upon millions of gil through the market board - and were doing so before the additional retainers came along. What advantage has their extra gil afforded them? A large house and the ability to purchase some decent overmelded gear that was quickly made obsolete by the next patch. of course they never really put the gear to good use since they spent their time crafting and playing the market boards instead of farming coils in a static.

There is no advantage here, it's a fallacy to suggest that the availability of additional paid retainers offers a gameplay advantage, it does not.

[Aerowaffle]

Convenience, yes. Advantage, no.

There is no gameplay difference or change in game play due to having an additional retainer, it does not affect combat at all, nor does it impact on my ability to gather or craft. It does make inventory management easier for me because I do not discipline my use of inventory space, but that is not a gameplay advantage, it is a concenience.



A retainer cannot make anything at all without the player doing something. If the retainer was going out on it's own and making 100K gil without any intervention by the player at all, it might be an advantage, but since the player has to actually do something to make that happen, it's not an advantage, it's simply content to play.

How is that retainer a gameplay advantage? Does it confer any special buffs or capabilities on the player? Does it make them faster on the ground, or able to teleport to any point on the map? Does it give them the ability to ignore attacks? Does it increase their HP? There is no gameplay advantage there.

You could argue that it makes it easier for a player to earn gil on the market boards, but at the end of the day the player still has to work with the game to obtain the gil, it's not automatic. So it's not an advantage, it's a convenience for the player. If you're saying that having the extra gil is an advantage, then every player who was ever fortunate to obtain any random drop that could be sold for millions of gil has an advantage, which is ridiculous.

I know many players who leveled all their crafts to 50 within months of ARR's launch. These players have earned millions upon millions of gil through the market board - and were doing so before the additional retainers came along. What advantage has their extra gil afforded them? A large house and the ability to purchase some decent overmelded gear that was quickly made obsolete by the next patch. of course they never really put the gear to good use since they spent their time crafting and playing the market boards instead of farming coils in a static.

There is no advantage here, it's a fallacy to suggest that the availability of additional paid retainers offers a gameplay advantage, it does not.

Dealing damage isn't automatic, so does dps differences also constitute as a "convenience"?

If player A can put 40 items on the market and player B can put 60 items on the market, player B has an advantage on the market over player A. Having more gil than the other guy holds certain advantages. You can buy more things then they can.

Just because the advantage is in an aspect of the game that you don't believe matters, doesn't mean it isn't an advantage. If it's part of the game, and you're able to do more things than another person trying to do the same, then it's an advantage.

[Kosmos992k]

Dealing damage isn't automatic, so does dps differences also constitute as a "convenience"?

What is this thing called "auto attack" again?

How does an extra retainer deal damage for you?

Sure damage dealing is core gameplay, but there is nothing inherent to an additional retainer that in any way enhances a player's capability in that regard.

Having more gil than others is an advantage, but the player who spends frugally will have more gil than the player who re-glamors their gear every day of the week. The point being all players have differing amounts of gil, some are high level crafters and are rolling in gil, some are not, and can't even afford a small house plot (not that any are left). The advantage of additional gil is the ability to purchase stuff on the market boards or in shops, it does not affect gameplay.

It is a fallacy to suggest that the availability of paid retainers offers a *gameplay* advantage, it does not.

If I go to the mog station and purchase two optional retainers, and then log in to the game, what gameplay advantage has purchasing the optional retainer service granted me? In truth nothing has changed for me in-game. I cannot run faster, hit harder, take more damage, have more hit points, resist more status effects, teleport to more locations, gather more quickly, craft any better, etc... I do not automatically gain extra gil, or extra materials. Only if I spend time using my time to earn ventures can I get my retainers to obtain things for me. In that same time I could be gathering or crafting things myself to sell rather than earning ventures for the retainer to use. Either way, the earning potential of the retainer is 100% dependent on my actions as a player.

Without the additional retainers the same would be true using the two free retainers. There is no advantage here because retainers cannot earn ventures for other retainers to use. So, the player either spends their time earning ventures, or doing what they would otherwise send their retainer to do. It's kind of a 1-1 exchange for the player because one way or the other they have top expend effort to get something.

What a retainer does offer without the player doing anything is additional inventory space which is sure as hell convenient, but it's not a *gameplay* advantage. A player more disciplined than I can be just as effective with two retainers worth of inventory as I am with 4. But simply having more inventory slots available on a retainer does not alter my gameplay.

[Aerowaffle]

What is this thing called "auto attack" again?

How does an extra retainer deal damage for you?

Sure damage dealing is core gameplay, but there is nothing inherent to an additional retainer that in any way enhances a player's capability in that regard.

Having more gil than others is an advantage, but the player who spends frugally will have more gil than the player who re-glamors their gear every day of the week. The point being all players have differing amounts of gil, some are high level crafters and are rolling in gil, some are not, and can't even afford a small house plot (not that any are left). The advantage of additional gil is the ability to purchase stuff on the market boards or in shops, it does not affect gameplay.

It is a fallacy to suggest that the availability of paid retainers offers a *gameplay* advantage, it does not.

If I go to the mog station and purchase two optional retainers, and then log in to the game, what gameplay advantage has purchasing the optional retainer service granted me? In truth nothing has changed for me in-game. I cannot run faster, hit harder, take more damage, have more hit points, resist more status effects, teleport to more locations, gather more quickly, craft any better, etc... I do not automatically gain extra gil, or extra materials. Only if I spend time using my time to earn ventures can I get my retainers to obtain things for me. In that same time I could be gathering or crafting things myself to sell rather than earning ventures for the retainer to use. Either way, the earning potential of the retainer is 100% dependent on my actions as a player.

Without the additional retainers the same would be true using the two free retainers. There is no advantage here because retainers cannot earn ventures for other retainers to use. So, the player either spends their time earning ventures, or doing what they would otherwise send their retainer to do. It's kind of a 1-1 exchange for the player because one way or the other they have top expend effort to get something.

What a retainer does offer without the player doing anything is additional inventory space which is sure as hell convenient, but it's not a *gameplay* advantage. A player more disciplined than I can be just as effective with two retainers worth of inventory as I am with 4. But simply having more inventory slots available on a retainer does not alter my gameplay.

I don't think you get it. Earning gil is part of gameplay. Owning a house is gameplay. Just because you deem it unnecessary doesn't make it not gameplay. We're playing a video-game, all aspects of the game is unnecessary. A person can play happily for their entire time in ffxiv without even touching anything past level 50 on battle classes. They are still playing the game and still care about the advantages and disadvantages in the aspects that they are a part of.

[Intaki]

You could argue that it makes it easier for a player to earn gil on the market boards, but at the end of the day the player still has to work with the game to obtain the gil, it's not automatic. So it's not an advantage, it's a convenience for the player.

A player with two retainers (fully leveled in DoL classes) can leverage those retainers to make 200k+ per day on average (and that's a conservative estimate). A player with three retainers can make 300k+ with the same investment of time and effort.

What advantage has their extra gil afforded them? A large house and the ability to purchase some decent overmelded gear that was quickly made obsolete by the next patch.

By that logic we should be allowed to buy Coil gear from vendors.

Also, you should never, ever need to farm venture tokens if you're doing your daily roulettes. Turning in gear for seals makes keeping ventures in stock utterly trivial.

[Kosmos992k]

A player with two retainers (fully leveled in DoL classes) can leverage those retainers to make 200k+ per day on average (and that's a conservative estimate). A player with three retainers can make 300k+ with the same investment of time and effort.

No you can't do it with the same investment of time. 4 retainers use twice the number of ventures as 2 retainers, so you will need to obtain the ventures. You'll double your time investment to get the ventures for that, so it's hardly the same time and effort is it?

I never said you needed to farm ventures. The point I was making is that the player can chose to do something that earns ventures in order to fuel their retainers actions, or they can chose to gather/farm whatever items themselves, or craft, or do something else entirely. It's the player's decision how they spend their time, and if they wish to play content that rewards them with ventures, then they can use their retainers. If not, they can't. It's not like the retainers automatically generat gil or can obtain ventures for each other.

I don't think you get it. Earning gil is part of gameplay. Owning a house is gameplay. Just because you deem it unnecessary doesn't make it not gameplay. We're playing a video-game, all aspects of the game is unnecessary. A person can play happily for their entire time in ffxiv without even touching anything past level 50 on battle classes. They are still playing the game and still care about the advantages and disadvantages in the aspects that they are a part of.

I don't think you get it. The amount of gil a player has depends on the player's actions. Retainers do not automatically generate income for the player, the player must make use of them to do so. Acquiring gil is a consequence of multiple activities within the game, and not specific to the use of a retainer to sell items on the market board. The retainer itself does nothing but stand there when called, the player has to actually do something to use the retainer as a tool to earn gil.

It seems like you and others want to use the fact that 4 retainers lets you put more things up on the market board at once, or that through ventures you can use 4 retainers to gather 4 times the items - which in turn leads to more income. The thing is, you have to have things to sell on the market board to use your 4 retainers, and you have to earn the ventures needed to send retainers out gathering/farming. It's entirely dependent on the effort that the player puts into it.

Yes, having more retainers will reduce the time taken to earn gil selling items - assuming that you have the items to sell. Since you have double the number of retainers you need double the number of items to sell to realize the larger income you say will be generated. Those items do not come from no where, they come as a consequence of what the player does. The retainers do not offer an inherent advantage in earning gil. You do not earn any more per venture used or item sold, it alters nothing about that at all.

You say that's all game play, fine it's all game play, but does me having 4 retainers mean I can sell things for twice the price of someone else? Does it mean that I get a discount on the number of ventures needed for sending my retainers out? Of course it doesn't, so where is the advantage?

[Intaki]

I never said you needed to farm ventures. The point I was making is that the player can chose to do something that earns ventures in order to fuel their retainers actions, or they can chose to gather/farm whatever items themselves, or craft, or do something else entirely.

There is literally no activity in this game outside of plain old crafting that does not carry the potential to reward you with ventures. Leves reward ventures, hunts reward seals which reward ventures, FATEs reward seals which reward ventures, dungeons/raids reward gear which reward seals which reward ventures. If you're not swimming in either Allied/GC seals or ventures themselves, you're not playing the game.

You say that's all game play, fine it's all game play, but does me having 4 retainers mean I can sell things for twice the price of someone else?

No, you just acquire them at twice the speed.

[Kosmos992k]

No, you just acquire them at twice the speed.

Twine the number of retainers require twice the number of ventures to use to maximum effect, that requires a time investment from the player. Rationalize it however you like the truth is the truth. In my opinion there is no inherent advantage to having 1 or 2 paid retainers since everything that can be accomplished with them is completely dependent on player action.

[Intaki]

Twine the number of retainers require twice the number of ventures to use to maximum effect

Which would matter if ventures weren't utterly trivial to acquire.

But while you are entitled to your own opinion, you are not entitled to your own facts. And the fact is that a person with four retainers can conjure into existence items of high value at twice the speed as a person with two.