I think its time BRD get some loving

[Vlady]

This thread needs to die. Bards don't need a buff and anyone who thinks they do did not see how crazy bards were during 2.0 days. Bards are still insane when every wod raid spams top 5 spots for dps are all bards. You want to be top dps in both casual and hard core raids. Please stop being so selfish. We saw what op bards did and se will not make that mistake again.

[Ooshima]

This thread needs to die. Bards don't need a buff and anyone who thinks they do did not see how crazy bards were during 2.0 days. Bards are still insane when every wod raid spams top 5 spots for dps are all bards. You want to be top dps in both casual and hard core raids. Please stop being so selfish. We saw what op bards did and se will not make that mistake again.

Putting aside the topic of BRDs should be tweaked or not,

1) No one says BRDs wants to be top DPS. Have you looked at the posts of those who made suggestions, despite you are against them? They said nothing of top DPS. Learn3read.
2) WoD? Please, I could do more DPS as a SCH than some of the crap DPS out there. Which junk BLM you are paired with that didn't tore through peak 2000DPS during trash?
3) You sounded more like a butthurt SMN, yes SMN needs a fix but you sounded funny.

[dejavutwo]

...

Actually, the number of other party members also does not affect scaling when everything is done proportionally. The bard will still end up doing the same percentage of the boss's total HP. Two quick examples.

First - To show that even as the party scales, the bard will still do the same percentage of damage:
Melee x2: 450 dps each
Caster x1: 430 dps
Bard x1: 415 dps
Tank x2: 200 dps each
Healer x2: 50 dps each
bard is at 92% of the dps of a melee.

That brings total party dps to 2245 dps, and lets say the fight lasts 10 minutes. That brings the boss's HP to 1,347,000.
During that 10 minutes, the bard would have done 249,000 damage, which amounts to 18.5% of the boss's HP.

Lets say eveyones dps doubled. Now The melee are doing 900 dps each, while the bard is doing 830 dps. The dps difference between bard and melee grew from 35 to 70.

The new fight, the party brings 4490 dps, and the boss will now have 2,694,000 HP.
The fight again lasts 10 minutes, allowing the bard to do 498,000 damage, which again amounts to 18.5% of the boss's HP.

Second - to show what happens if the gap does not grow.
Melee: 100 dps
Bard: 80 dps

with the above numbers, the bard would do 44.4% of the boss's hp.

Scaling up melee by 2x, but keeping the bard at 2 dps below, we get
Melee: 200 dps
Bard: 180 dps

with the new numbers, the bard has begun catching up to the melee in dps and is now doing 47.4% of the boss's hp. So, if a constant offset lower is maintained, then as classes scale, that offset becomes less and less significant. In order to keep the offset relevant, it also need to be scaled at the same rate.

[QiLymePye]

This is the problem I have with this game. SE makes a mmo with their version of characters and jobs that dont live up to the job. If they made the jobs play like they should, we wouldn't be having this problem. First, Brd is a dps. Period. Yes, it has support skills, but not many and they are not being expanded on. SE needs to either pick one or the other, or get away from the trinity and add another actual label, like support. Second, if they want brds to be a hybrid, they need to balance it more. Not with just making sure it does "less DMG" than other dps. If you didn't want it to do much dmg, then it shouldn't be dps. Just like if they didn't want SMN doing lots of dmg, then it shouldnt be labeled dps. Thats the problem. Their labeling of jobs that we have used forever dont work like you think in this game.

I suggested that if they keep the 20% debuff when singing song, they can counter that with double the auto attacks, like the barrage skill. that way they aren't a threat to being OP, but there is a benefit to playing song for the BRD user besides "you are taking one for the team". Or give them a bonus like when song is playing, speed up cooldown of certain skills like bloodletter. something simple.

[DoubleD]

This thread needs to die. Bards don't need a buff and anyone who thinks they do did not see how crazy bards were during 2.0 days. Bards are still insane when every wod raid spams top 5 spots for dps are all bards. You want to be top dps in both casual and hard core raids. Please stop being so selfish. We saw what op bards did and se will not make that mistake again.

Dude, ANYBODY that puts any effort in actually playing their class in WOD will be Top DPS. The only reason bards are top DPS a lot of the time in WOD is because their auto attacks hit from anywhere.

This is the general problem. The mostly casual DPSers see themselves getting out DPS'd by bards and cry about it.
If you're doing end-game raids everyone is usually pretty good at their job so it doesn't matter that bard is an easier class to play.

There's thread on JP FF site about a MNK that was parsing 595 in FCOB. What would the average WOD monk do? 200? 250?

And if you'd bother to read instead of rant, all the bards here are perfectly fine being at the bottom of the DPS chain. Just overall numbers are getting worse in comparison with every other class (besides SMN) when ever there is a patch where the Item level increases and we're worried about the future.

[DoubleD]

　Snip　

Hmm...　I'd like to disagree, but don't have any hard evidence and I won't argue about the percents. It just feels like bards are doing a bit less than 2.3. Part of that is probally due to the fact that most of the FCoB bosses are all pretty much punching bags. 　But I am still concerned at it being percentage based.

When you consider the Melee WD minus 5 factor (from 2.3) and compare it with the minus 6 from 2.4, just the raw numbers lost seem to start to outweigh the "percent less". It that WD minus 5 factor is a good 50-60k less damage than melee. And just seeing this increase in 2.4 is unconfortable.

[HeavenlyArmed]

Hmm...　I'd like to disagree, but don't have any hard evidence and I won't argue about the percents. It just feels like bards are doing a bit less than 2.3. Part of that is probally due to the fact that most of the FCoB bosses are all pretty much punching bags. 　But I am still concerned at it being percentage based.

When you consider the Melee WD minus 5 factor (from 2.3) and compare it with the minus 6 from 2.4, just the raw numbers lost seem to start to outweigh the "percent less". It that WD minus 5 factor is a good 50-60k less damage than melee. And just seeing this increase in 2.4 is unconfortable.

You're right that a large part of the feeling you have of Bards doing less damage than they have in the past is largely due to the encounter design of FCoB's bosses. Since all the fights are quite long, this means that more singing is needed to keep everyone else able to perform, which means Bard dps drops while as a result everyone else's dps remains the same. As for the WD issue, naturally when you reach the threshold of Bard losing another WD in comparison to the melee, it's going to feel like your dps has dropped. You've gone from the highest area of the range Bard's WD comes within back down to the lowest. The thing is, it's still within that range. The numbers are still around the same relative to the other jobs, meaning the "issue" isn't actually getting worse.

Now, about this whole thread. As many people have already pointed out, Bard does NOT need a buff. When a job is considered mandatory for all relevant endgame content, it is not underperforming in a way that would merit giving it a buff. And as the game is, there's no dps job considered more mandatory than Bard. When Black Mage got buffed, it was because people were refusing to take them into the relevant endgame content at the time because they weren't able to perform at the same level as the other jobs. When Dragoon got buffed, it was because the introduction of Ninja revealed that Dragoon was not performing at the level that a melee dps with zero utility should be performing dps-wise, which meant people were becoming less willing to take them into the relevant endgame content. When Warrior was buffed, it was because the job was vastly inferior in terms of tanking ability to Paladin, and as such people were opting to take two Paladins instead. Noticing a trend? No job got a buff when it was considered mandatory for doing serious endgame content. In fact, jobs typically only got buffs when the situation was so bad that people were refusing to take them into this content. Are people refusing to take Bards into FCoB? If you can find me a single example of a group that outright refuses to take a Bard, MAYBE I'll consider this position valid. However, the way things are, only one job is being actively excluded from doing the currently relevant endgame content barring a few edge cases, and that's Summoner. Summoner is the job that needs a buff right now. Not Bards.

[Warlyx]

so the jobs needs to suck so much that no1 bothers inviting u to relevant content...thats how u think it works? , SE IS SLOW fixing things , thats why bards are worried. better put the red flag up now before is too late and brds have to wait 3 months for fixes , with an expansion coming this is the best time to let SE be aware of actual brd issues (any job issues for that matter)

taking your example :

are ppl refusin to take smn into Fcob? NO , so that means smn doenst need to be buffed? far from it.

is the same old , my job is worse , u dont need fixes/attention , my job goes first!!!! and since SE only have 1 man working on job issues that means doesnt have time for your job

[Hik0]

Ok, this is relatively easy to show if you are only talking about 2 DPS that comprises the whole party.

[B]But there's also another MNK/NIN + BLM (and when they fix it, SMN) + 2 Tanks that's weapon damage is scaling properly to factor in.

and the more DPS the less the brd loss matters:lets say (for easy math) that DPSes do 500 and BRD do 400.
DPS*2 VS DPS+BRD : 1000 Vs 900 the team with BRD is 10% lower.
DPS*6 VS DPS*5+BRD :3000VS 2900 the team with BRD is only 3.3333% lower

The percentage does not matter. Like I've said so many times, with larger numbers, the raw number of that percentage greatly inflates.
This is going to the extreme, but say a bard ends up doing 1,000,0000 less damage points than a MNK/NIN/DRG 3~4 years down the line.

raw damage doesnt matter: open your last parse, multiply any damage done by 10^99 that doesnt change anything, the difference between with brd an w/o brd dosent change

[Alistaire]

Yup, as content goes on the damage goes up but so does boss health. A BRD that does 20% of the damage in turn 1 is the same contribution as one that does 20% of the damage in turn 13.