Ironworks Fishing Rod

[DarkmoonVael]

The ironworks rod is not the only thing you get for this achievement, you also get one of the rarest titles in the game. I have been fishing for a long time, and the lucis has taken a lot of effort to get as well, as it requires the original halcyon rod, then the foragers, then the upgrade to lucis. If done when these were new, it also took a lot of time and dedication. The ironworks can also be given to multiple retainers, as it can be bought from the calamity salvager for less than 4800gil. With all the above taken into account, then no the ironworks really does not need to be brought up to the same level or made better than the lucis. I have the ironworks and the lucis, i also expected the ironworks to be surpassed if more gathering tools were released.

Also, the ironworks was a bonus and benefit that only we as fishers got, no other gathering class in the game got something like this.

I know this is not the answer you were hoping for, but the ironworks still has many benefits, and people sometimes forget what it was like keeping up with fishing at the time, and all the work that had to go to get the lucis, not just the current stage from supra>lucis.

[liev]

you also get one of the rarest titles in the game.

It's hardly a stand-out title. Without knowing that it's from fishing, most assume that it's to do with DoM classes.

The ironworks can also be given to multiple retainers, as it can be bought from the calamity salvager for less than 4800gil.

You can buy a Halcyon Rod & do an entire second & third Lucis for less effort than one Ironworks Fishing Rod. It's 86/119 big fish vs. 106 big fish (most of which require more gathering than the supra/lucis fish anyway).

lucis has taken a lot of effort to get as well, as it requires the original halcyon rod, then the foragers, then the upgrade to lucis

You have to do Halcyon Rod > Forager's > Supra > Ironworks Rod too.
Even so, Halcyon Rod > Forager's > Supra > Lucis is still much much easier than Ironworks Rod.

Halcyon Rod > Forager's > Supra > Lucis
20 of one fish, 303 min gathering
3 of one fish, 348 min gathering
30 of one fish, 357 min gathering
...53 big fish total, 357 minimum gathering

Ironworks Fishing Rod
106 unique big fish, 393 minimum gathering

[DarkmoonVael]

It's hardly a stand-out title. Without knowing that it's from fishing, most assume that it's to do with DoM classes.



You can buy a Halcyon Rod & do an entire second & third Lucis for less effort than one Ironworks Fishing Rod. It's 86/119 big fish vs. 106 big fish (most of which require more gathering than the supra/lucis fish anyway).


You have to do Halcyon Rod > Forager's > Supra > Ironworks Rod too.
Even so, Halcyon Rod > Forager's > Supra > Lucis is still much much easier than Ironworks Rod.

Halcyon Rod > Forager's > Supra > Lucis
20 of one fish, 303 min gathering
3 of one fish, 348 min gathering
30 of one fish, 357 min gathering
...53 big fish total, 357 minimum gathering

Ironworks Fishing Rod
106 unique big fish, 393 minimum gathering

Irrespective of not "being a stand out title" it is, non the less a very rare title. Also, people not knowing where it comes from is hardly that big a deal.

If you believe 2-4 lucis fishing rods are easier than 2-4 ironworks, then well, what can i say. Dedicated fishers will naturally get the ironworks rod as well....

Also, please do not decontextualise quotes, you (deliberatly or not) missed out the very pertinent point i made of if you kept up with the halcyon rod upgrade as soon as they were introduced, it required a lot of dedication to do. The point in my post, which you seem to have missed, is that it may seem easy now, but it wasnt when you were doing it as it was released.

I missed this point. Actually, the Ironworks Fishing Rod was added in the same update that gave Miner and Botanist the Forager's offhand tools, upgrades exclusive to those two classes.
http://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodest...18d0d45bf52d59

Note that
1) Miner and Botanist upgrades can be purchased with gil. Only the fisher upgrade requires the player to actually work.
2) Only the fisher upgrade has been replaced. The Miner and Botanist offhand tools are still best in slot.

This point is spurious at best, the other gathring classes have thier OFFHAND which is purchasable, not the MAINHAND, which is what the fishing rod is. No main hand can be purchased with gil in the manner you are claiming.

The fisher upgrade is not the only one that has been replaced, the miner gets thier lucis as does the botanist.

Please please please link me the miner and botanist i80 tool that has been replaced with the lucis.

Just so you know, you don't even get a title with the rod, as was mentioned. The title is gotten from the previous achievement, for catching 100 fish. The rod is the ultimate achievement after that for catching 106 fish.

You know i stand corrected, you are absolutely right here, its the achievement before the ironworks rod that gets you the title . However the sentiment still stands that there is more to "showoff" with than just the ironworks rod if a fisher wishes to show thier dedication to whoever looks at them.

... and so is with luminary tools. It's just achievements. ^^;

Shhhhh.....dont point this out .

[liev]

If you believe 2-4 lucis fishing rods are easier than 2-4 ironworks, then well, what can i say.

Catching 33 easy fish for an extra Lucis is totally worse than catching an additional 104 harder fish (you already caught sovereign and olgoi) to get an Ironworks Rod to dupe in the first place.

Also, please do not decontextualise quotes, you (deliberatly or not) missed out the very pertinent point i made of if you kept up with the halcyon rod upgrade as soon as they were introduced, it required a lot of dedication to do. The point in my post, which you seem to have missed, is that it may seem easy now, but it wasnt when you were doing it as it was released.

I did Forager's Rod when it was released and I did my Supra in the same gear. Yes, it is easier now with the new gear. No, it was never harder than Ironworks. Silver Sovereigns, Olgoi-Khoirkhoi, and Gigant Clams are all VERY easy catches compared to many of the fish required for Ironworks. The entire process from Halcyon Rod to Halcyon Rod Lucis added together took me less than two weeks. Ironworks took a month of non-stop fishing.

Also, again, to get Ironworks you have to get Supra so you can't pretend that the first three stages (Halcyon Rod, Forager's, and Supra) only apply to getting the Lucis.

This point is spurious at best, the other gathring classes have thier OFFHAND which is purchasable, not the MAINHAND, which is what the fishing rod is. No main hand can be purchased with gil in the manner you are claiming.

The fisher upgrade is not the only one that has been replaced, the miner gets thier lucis as does the botanist.

Please please please link me the miner and botanist i80 tool that has been replaced with the lucis.

The entire point was that you can't claim that only fisher got a special upgrade, when Miner and Botanist got new offhand tools are the same time. Item level and slot is irrelevant. The upgrades were parallel.

The secondary points were that Miner and Botanist's special upgrades were comparatively much easier to get and yet they still get to use their special upgrades, while the special rod fisher got and actually had to work for is now useless.

Edit 2/06
The crossed out argument is a red herring and not relevant to the argument presented in the OP.

If you're concerned with fairness to Miner and Botanist, make a separate suggestion thread. The point of this post is that fisher had to work, and work hard to obtain the rod. It is my stance that the rod should at least have a unique appearance if its use was going to be limited to a single major patch.

[DarkmoonVael]

Catching 33 easy fish for an extra Lucis is totally worse than catching an additional 104 harder fish (you already caught sovereign and olgoi) to get an Ironworks Rod to dupe in the first place.


I did Forager's Rod when it was released and I did my Supra in the same gear. Yes, it is easier now with the new gear. No, it was never harder than Ironworks. Silver Sovereigns, Olgoi-Khoirkhoi, and Gigant Clams are all VERY easy catches compared to many of the fish required for Ironworks. The entire process from Halcyon Rod to Halcyon Rod Lucis added together took me less than two weeks. Ironworks took a month of non-stop fishing.

Also, again, to get Ironworks you have to get Supra so you can't pretend that the first three stages (Halcyon Rod, Forager's, and Supra) only apply to getting the Lucis.




The entire point was that you can't claim that only fisher got a special upgrade, when Miner and Botanist got new offhand tools are the same time. Item level and slot is irrelevant. The upgrades were parallel.

The secondary points were that Miner and Botanist's special upgrades were comparatively much easier to get and yet they still get to use their special upgrades, while the special rod fisher got and actually had to work for is now useless.

So, 2-4 does not equal one. That is the end of that. The fact remains that once got, the ironworks can be re-purchases ad nauseum for less than 4800gil each if ever needed.

Fisher is the only gathering class to get a unique i80 main hand as a reward, no others did. Fisher, like all other gathering classes, have to upgrade their equipment through gil apart from their main hand. This makes the ironworks rod unique, and made it a very good reward from when it was introduced until patch 2.5. It is still highly relevant since it can eb given to retainers. MMO's work by upgrading and outdating previous equipment, fisher should not be an exception to this rule.

I have never pretended that the first 3 stages only apply to lucis, you however seem to have down played all the effort into getting a lucis. Again, things become outdated in an MMO, no one should expect that fisher should be the only class to be exempt from this.

Fisher was the ONLY gatherer class to get a special and unique upgrade to its main hand. This is a fact. Offhands on miner and botanist are, like all other gathering equipment, upgraded by making them or purchasing them. the ironworks rod is a unique achievement reward granted to fishers. There is no other equivalent with the other gathering classes.

I for one am grateful to have had the ironworks rod when it was relevant to me, but understand that 1) it was a unique reward to fisher that no other gathering class got an equivalent of and 2) that it would become outdated.

EDIT: TC has redacted the above argument, which was proven to be wrong, in a bid to remove it from the discussion. Argument relevant to OP can not be controlled by TC, relevance is decided by participants and audience.

[liev]

So, 2-4 does not equal one. That is the end of that.

33x3 = 99 which is still less than 104? That's three Lucis rods for less fish than Ironworks.

The fact remains that once got, the ironworks can be re-purchases ad nauseum for less than 4800gil each if ever needed.

The fact remains that you still have to catch 104 more fish to get the Ironworks Rod in the first place. And unless you're getting rods for four retainers, Lucis is less work and better in terms of stats anyway.

Fisher is the only gathering class to get a unique i80 main hand as a reward, no others did. Fisher, like all other gathering classes, have to upgrade their equipment through gil apart from their main hand. This makes the ironworks rod unique, and made it a very good reward from when it was introduced until patch 2.5. It is still highly relevant since it can eb given to retainers. MMO's work by upgrading and outdating previous equipment, fisher should not be an exception to this rule.

Handing out better gear for less work is apparently how MMOs work too?

I have never pretended that the first 3 stages only apply to lucis, you however seem to have down played all the effort into getting a lucis. Again, things become outdated in an MMO, no one should expect that fisher should be the only class to be exempt from this.

All of the effort that went into getting a Lucis is literally all of the same effort that went into getting Ironworks with the exception of the clams.

Let's make a road map.
20 Silver Sovereigns --> 3 Olgoi-Khorkoi --> Okay now you can catch 30 HQ clams, open every game day for 3 hours ET OR you can catch 104 more unique fish with time, weather, weather transition, and mooches.

That last one? That's Lucis vs. Ironworks. The only thing I've said is that Lucis is easier to get. Now, hopefully you can understand that 30 HQ clams is easier than 104 more unique fish with time, weather, weather transition, and mooches. I didn't downplay the process of getting a Lucis because it's the exact same process as getting an Ironworks Rod until the last part. I've said that Ironworks Rod is harder to get meaning that catching 30 HQ claims is literally nothing compared to 104 unique fish. This isn't a hard concept.

MMOs work through progression. You get the current best thing, and then you use that current best thing to work toward the new best thing.
Now, considering that you can catch everything you need to get a Lucis with a Forager's Rod and melded AF, Ironworks becomes the ultimate waste of time. It's not a glamour item (see: Luminary). And even if you want to stick to your "but retainers!" argument, that's pretty pathetic for the effort required.

Fisher was the ONLY gatherer class to get a special and unique upgrade to its main hand. This is a fact. Offhands on miner and botanist are, like all other gathering equipment, upgraded by making them or purchasing them. the ironworks rod is a unique achievement reward granted to fishers. There is no other equivalent with the other gathering classes.

We're not going to agree here. An upgrade is an upgrade. The Ironworks Rod was released alongside all of the Forager's upgrades. Giving fisher a new rod slightly better than Supra is the equivalent of giving miner and botanist a new offhand to go with their Supra. That Fisher had to actually work, and work hard, for the upgrade is just a testament to the fact that the rod should've at least had a unique appearance if its use was going to be limited to a single major patch. Supra lasted two patches and was necessary to progress to the Lucis. Ironworks, again, much harder to get than Lucis, is just left floating useless for any purpose other than "retainers!"

Edit 2/06
The crossed out argument is a red herring and not relevant to the argument presented in the OP.

I for one am grateful to have had the ironworks rod when it was relevant to me, but understand that 1) it was a unique reward to fisher that no other gathering class got an equivalent of and 2) that it would become outdated.

You got the Ironworks rod less than a month ago. You enjoyed it for so long. You had Lucis by at least week two. Very hard to get, obviously.

[DarkmoonVael]

33x3 = 99 which is still less than 104? That's three Lucis rods for less fish than Ironworks.


The fact remains that you still have to catch 104 more fish to get the Ironworks Rod in the first place. And unless you're getting rods for four retainers, Lucis is less work and better in terms of stats anyway.



Handing out better gear for less work is apparently how MMOs work too?



All of the effort that went into getting a Lucis is literally all of the same effort that went into getting Ironworks with the exception of the clams.

Let's make a road map.
20 Silver Sovereigns --> 3 Olgoi-Khorkoi --> Okay now you can catch 30 HQ clams, open every game day for 3 hours ET OR you can catch 104 more unique fish with time, weather, weather transition, and mooches.

That last one? That's Lucis vs. Ironworks. The only thing I've said is that Lucis is easier to get. Now, hopefully you can understand that 30 HQ clams is easier than 104 more unique fish with time, weather, weather transition, and mooches. I didn't downplay the process of getting a Lucis because it's the exact same process as getting an Ironworks Rod until the last part. I've said that Ironworks Rod is harder to get meaning that catching 30 HQ claims is literally nothing compared to 104 unique fish. This isn't a hard concept.

MMOs work through progression. You get the current best thing, and then you use that current best thing to work toward the new best thing.
Now, considering that you can catch everything you need to get a Lucis with a Forager's Rod and melded AF, Ironworks becomes the ultimate waste of time. It's not a glamour item (see: Luminary). And even if you want to stick to your "but retainers!" argument, that's pretty pathetic for the effort required.


We're not going to agree here. An upgrade is an upgrade. The Ironworks Rod was released alongside all of the Forager's upgrades. Giving fisher a new rod slightly better than Supra is the equivalent of giving miner and botanist a new offhand to go with their Supra. That Fisher had to actually work, and work hard, for the upgrade is just a testament to the fact that the rod should've at least had a unique appearance if its use was going to be limited to a single major patch. Supra lasted two patches and was necessary to progress to the Lucis. Ironworks, again, much harder to get than Lucis, is just left floating useless for any purpose other than "retainers!"


You got the Ironworks rod less than a month ago. You enjoyed it for so long. You had Lucis by at least week two. Very hard to get, obviously.

First of all, it is absolutely irrelevant when i obtained the ironworks fishing rod. If you read carefully how i phrase things, i mad eit quite clear thta i was happy that i got it when it was relevant to ME. Going with your logic, i should actually be more angry than you since i had the rod for less time than you before it came obsolete. I, however, can see the benefits to having th e ronworks rod, even for that length of time. I have given a miriad of reasons why this is the case.

You are, quite simply, plain wrong that the ironworks is the equivalent of the foragers offhands. One is an achievement reward, a main hand and i80. The other is part of the normal gearing for the other classes, is created from crafters like all the other gear apart from the main hands and is i70. Miner and botanists have higher gathering and perception requirements for their nodes, and this is reflected with their requirements to have an offhand tool (currently they need 450/450, whilst fisher needs 403/320........403 gathering for Nepto, 320 perception for HQ mahar for the shinisauriousythingymabob). You are just flat out wrong with this comparison.

As for making the gearing up in an MMO easier, this MMO has already done it, multiple times in the past. This is not new at all. Myth, when it first came out was capped at 300. By just increasing this cap, gearing became easier. Putting coil into DF has made gearing easier. However, as stated many many many times by more than one person, the ironworks is an ACHIEVEMENT reward, and is outwith the normal gear cycle.

Personally I am grateful for my Ironworks, equipped on my FSH retainer doing ventures. And the second Ironworks I gave to my other FSH retainer. Saves me a lot of trouble melding to meet the gathering caps on ventures.

Couldn't agree with this more. And lots of others seem to agree with this sentiment as well .

lawl

I do enjoy doing achievements anyways. I did have at least 2 luminaries. XD

Although... I do really hope the ironwork rod are storeable in armoire, coz it would be a problem if not. ^^;

. I enjoyed getting mine as well . I am glad i got it since i can give it them to my retainers, and send them fishing.

[BobbinT]

Shhhhh.....dont point this out .

lawl

I do enjoy doing achievements anyways. I did have at least 2 luminaries. XD

Although... I do really hope the ironwork rod are storeable in armoire, coz it would be a problem if not. ^^;

[liev]

Also, the ironworks was a bonus and benefit that only we as fishers got, no other gathering class in the game got something like this.

I missed this point. Actually, the Ironworks Fishing Rod was added in the same update that gave Miner and Botanist the Forager's offhand tools, upgrades exclusive to those two classes.
http://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodest...18d0d45bf52d59

Note that
1) Miner and Botanist upgrades can be purchased with gil. Only the fisher upgrade requires the player to actually work.

2) Only the fisher upgrade has been replaced. The Miner and Botanist offhand tools are still best in slot.

Edit 2/06
This argument is a red herring and not relevant to the argument presented in the OP.

If you're concerned with fairness to Miner and Botanist, make a separate suggestion thread. The point of this post is that fisher had to work, and work hard to obtain the rod. It is my stance that the rod should at least have a unique appearance if its use was going to be limited to a single major patch.