Ironworks Fishing Rod

[liev]

Main Arguments from the OP:

Argument A
The achievement to obtain Ironworks Rod is very difficult and time consuming.
∴ It should have some sort of prestige associated with it.

Argument B
The Ironworks Rod should have some sort of prestige associated with it.
The prestige of the Ironworks Rod was formerly its impressive stats.
The Halcyon Rod Lucis boasts more impressive stats than the Ironworks Rod.
∴ The Ironworks Rod no longer holds any prestige.

Argument C
The Ironworks Rod should have some sort of prestige associated with it.
The Ironworks Rod no longer holds any prestige.
∴ The Ironworks Rod should be altered in some way to restore prestige.


Argument D
The consequent argument for stat-improvements:
The achievement to obtain Ironworks Rod is very difficult and time consuming.
Halcyon Rod Lucis is comparatively easier and less time consuming.
The Ironworks Rod should be altered in some way to restore prestige.
∴ Ironworks Rod should be better made better than Halcyon Rod Lucis.


Argument E
The consequent argument for an altered physical appearance:
The Ironworks Rod should be altered in some way to restore prestige.
∴ The Ironworks Rod should be given a unique, stand-out appearance.

Note that all of the above have been included in the OP since version 1 and that none of the above have changed since version 1.

Right click and open in new tab.
Also, OP current version vs. original version: http://i.imgur.com/KWIBxcE.png


Your arguments:

Fisher already got something special.
∴ The Ironworks Rod should not be altered in some way to restore prestige.
You attacked no arguments presented, with the conclusion that Arguments B, C, D, and E are wrong.
This argument was entertained for a short time, though it is fallacious. It's a red herring.

Lucis is hard to get as well because you must take into account Halcyon Rod > Forager's > Supra.
∴ The Ironworks Rod should not be altered in some way to restore prestige.
You attacked Argument D, with the conclusion that Arguments B, C, D, and E are wrong.

(Repeatedly) countered with:
The process to get Lucis and Ironworks is largely the same. Halcyon Rod > Forager's > Supra applies to both rods.
To get Halcyon Rod Lucis, you must additionally catch 30 HQ clams.
To get Ironworks Rod, you must additionally catch 104 unique fish with much harder catch requirements.
∴ Ironworks Rod is much harder to get than Lucis.
∴ The soundness of all arguments presented is unaffected.

Ironworks Rod is still useful for retainers.
∴ The Ironworks Rod should not be altered in some way to restore prestige.
You attacked the evidence for Arguments B and C, with the conclusion that Arguments B, C, D, and E are wrong.

(Repeatedly) countered with:
Each additional Halcyon Rod Lucii, requires you to catch 33 fish.
One, two, three, and four additional Halcyon Rod Lucii require 33, 66, 99, and 132 fish respectively.
Ironworks Rod requires 104 unique fish with much harder catch requirements.
Halcyon Rod Lucis is better stats-wise and has opportunity for future upgrades.
Retainers do not require the rod, it simply makes gearing them easier.
Not all fishers have fisher retainers.
∴ Halcyon Rod Lucis is a more reasonable option unless you require rods for 4 retainers.
∴ Halcyon Rod Lucis holds more promise for the future.
∴ The usefulness of Ironworks Rod for retainers is questionable.
∴ Ironworks Rod does not benefit all fishers.
∴ The soundness of all arguments presented is unaffected.

Forager's Rod was also difficult to get and has been replaced as well.
∴ Ironworks Rod served to be replaced anyway.
∴ The Ironworks Rod should not be altered in some way to restore prestige.
You attacked Argument D, with the conclusion that Arguments B, C, D, and E are wrong.

Countered with:
Forager's Rod, at a time, was a necessary progression step.
Ironworks Rod was never needed for anything.
∴ Forager's Rod was not replaced in the same way that Ironworks Rod has been.
∴ The soundness of all arguments presented is unaffected.

The Master rings are not good stats-wise.
The Master rings are also not a good glamour item.
∴ The Ironworks Rod should not be given a unique, stand-out appearance.
∴ The Ironworks Rod should not be altered in some way to restore prestige.
You attacked arguments A and E, with the conclusion that Arguments B, C, D, and E are wrong.

Countered with:
The Master rings are intended for and useful to fresh 50s.
The Master rings have a very very unique appearance, unlike the Ironworks Rod.
∴ Master rings do, even still, serve a purpose.
∴ Master rings do have the possibility to be used as unique glamour items.
∴ The soundness of all arguments presented is unaffected.

Making gearing up in an MMO easier is standard practice.
This game has done it in the past already with uncapped Myth, DF coil, etc.
∴ Ironworks Rod served to be replaced anyway.
∴ The Ironworks Rod should not be altered in some way to restore prestige.
You attacked the conclusion of Argument A, with the conclusion that Arguments A, B, C, D, and E are wrong.

Countered with:
Never before has such a difficult achievement reward been rendered useless for any purpose (to include glamours) outright.
None of your examples rendered anything obsolete.
Going by the past, gear is typically only rendered obsolete every two patches.
Ironworks Rod was replaced after one patch.
∴ Ironworks Rod is not comparable to Myth, DF coil, etc.
∴ Ironworks Rod should not have been rendered useless, and especially not so soon.
∴ The soundness of all arguments presented is unaffected.

Miner, Botanist, and Fisher do not need Lucis.
Supra is good enough for all current content.
∴ Lucis Tools are unnecessary upgrades too.
∴ Ironworks Rod being replaced is no big deal.
∴ The Ironworks Rod should not be altered in some way to restore prestige.
You attacked Argument B, with the conclusion that Arguments B, C, D and E are wrong.

Countered with:
Lucis tools are obviously to prepare us for the future.
Ironworks Rod was replaced before it served any purpose.
∴ The replacement of Ironworks Rod is not comparable to the replacement of Supra for Miner and Botanist.
∴ Ironworks Rod should not have been replaced already.
∴ The soundness of all arguments presented is unaffected.

Supra also requires 1 Mastercraft Demimateria and 10 Fieldcraft III Demimateria.
Lucis also requires 20 Moonstones and 60 Glacier Crystals.
∴ Lucis is hard to get as well.
∴ You are curtailing information to suit your argument.
∴ The Ironworks Rod should not be altered in some way to restore prestige.
You attacked Argument D, with the conclusion that Arguments B, C, D, and E are wrong. This is essentially the same as the second argument from you I listed. As such, I'll just repeat that bit.

(Repeatedly) countered with:
The process to get Lucis and Ironworks is largely the same. Halcyon Rod > Forager's > Supra applies to both rods.
To get Halcyon Rod Lucis, you must additionally catch 30 HQ clams.
To get Ironworks Rod, you must additionally catch 104 unique fish with much harder catch requirements.
∴ Ironworks Rod is much harder to get than Lucis.
∴ The soundness of all arguments presented is unaffected.

Any curtailed information was curtailed because it's not worth talking about. The extras for Supra are needed for both rods. If you're going to bring up the extra reqs for Lucis, you're also going to need to acknowledge that only Ironworks requires Forager's armor. And a full set of Forager's, if purchased instead of worked toward, costs a shit ton more than 60 Glacier Crystals and 20 Moonstones. If anything, bringing that stuff up supports my arguments more than it does yours.

If you can actually read, which is doubtful at this point, you'll see that every single valid argument has been appropriately addressed.
(And just to be safe, since you didn't have a clue what red herring meant, ∴ means therefore.)

[Duuude007]

It's obvious that you did not even read the OP because this is not about Lucis making it easier to get Ironworks.

I read the OP, and yes, my point is still relevant. Just like they eased the droprate of atmas for relics, they eased the difficulty to earn legendaries faster and without a need of food or FC buff, given the appropriate gear. With the side bonus of a powerful rod which can be duplicated.

A small group of people complained that atma droprate was made too easy at this stage in the game. Crafters likewize have complained that the ease of earning Fieldcraft III and Mastercraft Demimateria has made earning artisan gear too easy. You have a similar beef with the inevitable, similar handout made for fishers.

Yes, inevitable. Get over yourself.

[liev]

I read the OP, and yes, my point is still relevant. Just like they eased the droprate of atmas for relics, they eased the difficulty to earn legendaries faster and without a need of food or FC buff, given the appropriate gear. With the side bonus of a powerful rod which can be duplicated.

A small group of people complained that atma droprate was made too easy at this stage in the game. Crafters likewize have complained that the ease of earning Fieldcraft III and Mastercraft Demimateria has made earning artisan gear too easy. You have a similar beef with the inevitable, similar handout made for fishers.

Yes, inevitable. Get over yourself.

lol did you really tho? i'm not even sure you read the quote before you responded to it

this is not about Lucis making it easier to get Ironworks

This is not about Lucis making it easier to get Ironworks.
This is not about Lucis making fishing easier.
This is about Ironworks, a very difficult achievement item, no longer having any relevant use, to include glamour.

Do I need to edit the post at the top of this page?

The Ironworks Rod should be altered in some way to restore prestige.
Ironworks Rod should be better made better than Halcyon Rod Lucis. OR The Ironworks Rod should be given a unique, stand-out appearance.
"Get over yourself."
∴ OP is wrong.

yeah no, great argument

Even your examples are poor. Increased atma drop rates and increased demimateria availability did not render anything obsolete.

Why don't you get over yourself?

[Duuude007]

This is about Ironworks, a very difficult achievement item, no longer having any relevant use, to include glamour.

Very? No, not at all, really. At least not anymore, which is MY point in past posts- inevitable easing of content, and eventual obsolescence. Just RNG at this point. No relevant use? thats up to the player. You don't speak for everybody, nor should you.

The Ironworks Rod should be altered in some way to restore prestige.

Because it used to be difficult to earn, and now is easy to earn? The same could be said about Luminary. It won't be altered to be more potent, as its an achievement reward. Something people will eventually get just by grinding the content.

[DarkmoonVael]

Making up meanings of known phrases, still mudslinging and insulting people because i can not get my own way

Red herring has never ever, in the history of this phrases use in the english language, meant "therefore". Never. It is a clue or piece of information that is meant to be distracting. I know this, all definitions state this.

But again you resort to the insults, showing the non-validity of anything you have to say now.

Others are responding, and it is, again, not to your liking so you resort to curtailing what is and is not allowed to be discussed. Duuude007, has just brought up the same valid point that has been made countless times, your reaction : "i dont want this discussing because i say so".

I can see now that even though my arguments are, as you have argued countless times above, absolute rubbish, you have had to resort to an epistomological structure or arguing against myself. However, yet again, you have decided just to ignore what has been discussed, and decided to actually change what your main argument is. These arguments are not from the main post. You have, yet again, updated the main post to include these arguments. Poor poor poor debate skills.

As for what has been pointed out about what you truely have to do to get the lucis, you can not engage with that because you know your arguments have been shown to be deliberatly missing information out.

Stop the mudslinging and the petty insults, it is embarassing to actually have to engage with someone who does that, tries to rewrite the terms of the debate whenever they can not argue a point to any great strength, tries to REWRITE THE MEANING of english phrases, has to update the original piece in an attempt to censor people, shouts at anyone and everyone that has a different opinion to themselves.

Others have entered this discussion, non in direct support to you.

if this ironworks rod is all about prestige, why do you see this as being the equivalant of the foragers off hand for the other 2 gathering classes.

Debate with someone who defeats their own arguments countless times is amusing, as long as you keep up this disgusting attitude of yours, i will continue responding.

Also, so funny that you state i can not read, maybe you should read carefully the points that have been made?

Oh and one more thing, your arguments have been nothing to do with prestige up until your last post, it has been all about difficulty. This point, having been utterly defeated, has now changed to something else. If it is about prestige, the title of "master caster" will show people your fishing epeen, which it is now quite clear is all you want. Dont come to the forums expecting others to stroke your ego, especially with this disgusting attitude of yours.

Very? No, not at all, really. At least not anymore, which is MY point in past posts- inevitable easing of content, and eventual obsolescence. Just RNG at this point. No relevant use? thats up to the player. You don't speak for everybody, nor should you.


Because it used to be difficult to earn, and now is easy to earn? The same could be said about Luminary. It won't be altered to be more potent, as its an achievement reward. Something people will eventually get just by grinding the content.

These are exactly the points i have been making as well, but well, i am sure you have seen the responses to them. As an analogy, there are still many fellow master fisher on my server that i know who are using the ironworks still, and are not getting the lucis. Neither are needed for end game fishing currently. One thing you will notice is the OP flip-flops between the ironworks being unique but also being the equivalent of the foragers offhands, at one point stating that that are more or less exactly the same. OP also refuses to acknowledge that the ironworks rod still has relevance, i believe you have also pointed this out to them.

As for the luminary, yes. That will possibly take the same amount of real time to get as the ironworks.

[liev]

Red herring has never ever, in the history of this phrases use in the english language, meant "therefore". Never. It is a clue or piece of information that is meant to be distracting. I know this, all definitions state this.

LOL
No, that symbol with the three dots means therefore. GJ reading.

[liev]

Very? No, not at all, really. At least not anymore, which is MY point in past posts- inevitable easing of content, and eventual obsolescence. Just RNG at this point. No relevant use? thats up to the player. You don't speak for everybody, nor should you.

Whoosh.

Because it used to be difficult to earn, and now is easy to earn? The same could be said about Luminary. It won't be altered to be more potent, as its an achievement reward. Something people will eventually get just by grinding the content.

Whoosh. No it has nothing to do with eased difficulty. Read the OP.
Luminary - see page one. It's useful as a glamour item. Ironworks is not.

[liev]

Oh and one more thing, your arguments have been nothing to do with prestige up until your last post, it has been all about difficulty.

Just because I didn't use that specific word, does not mean that it has not been the point since page one.

Since OP, the point has been that it should be good or look good.

If it was buffed: The prestige would lie in the stats.
If its appearance was changed: The prestige would lie in its appearance.

[liev]

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...=1#post2764078

Maybe you should re-read this a couple times.

[Duuude007]

No it has nothing to do with eased difficulty. Read the OP.

It has plenty to do with it, regardless of whether you decide to ignore it. Re: reality.

Point, counterpoint. Just because you disagree with our counterpoints does not mean that they should not be considered.