Ironworks Fishing Rod

[liev]

Patch 2.5 introduced the Halcyon Rod Lucis.

The entire progression from Halcyon Rod to Lucis is possible in gear from Patch 2.2. The lowest reported hq clam catch I've seen so far is 357 gathering and 298 perception. You can hit 357/298 wearing full AF + i70 jewelry + Forager's Hat/Rod with Stuffed Artichoke and the tier one FC Gathering Buff....all gear from 2.2 or earlier... Shockingly low for the best rod currently in the game...

And then...

To obtain the Ironworks Rod, you must catch 106 of the 112 big fish. Of the 106 lowest, the fish with the highest requirement needs 393 gathering minimum.

Halcyon Rod > Forager's > Supra > Lucis
20 of one fish, 303 min gathering you can even skip this step now
3 of one fish, 348 min gathering
30 of one fish, 357 min gathering
...53 33 big fish total, 357 minimum gathering

Ironworks Fishing Rod
106 unique big fish, 393 minimum gathering

106 unique big fish...with the headaches that are

• Very short windows (as low as 1-2 hours ET)
• Rare time & weather combinations...plus all of the above
• Rare weather transitions...plus all of the above
• Very high chance of escape...plus all of the above
• Insanely low bite rates (1-3%)...plus all of the above
• Double & triple mooches with forks at each mooch...plus all of the above

Conclusion
Not only does Ironworks Fishing Rod require substantially higher gathering than the Lucis, but it is a much larger time investment.

Either:
A) The Ironworks Rod should be made better than or at least on par with the Lucis. It's much harder & more time consuming to obtain, so the stats should reflect this. (Preferred)

B) In light of how difficult the Ironworks Rod is to obtain, its appearance should be altered so that it is at least worthwhile as a glamour item. It's very plain and boring. There's nothing special about it. It looks like every other rod in the game with the exception of the Halcyon Rod variants. To be more clear, I would prefer that the rod have an appearance closer to that of the Ironworks Magitek weapons. http://i.imgur.com/J9TgyRs.jpg

C) Both!? I can hope!

Updating 2/07 to include the following quote. It's everything from above in a different format. See: http://i.imgur.com/B4Jb6SA.png

Argument A
The achievement to obtain Ironworks Rod is very difficult and time consuming.
∴ It should have some sort of prestige associated with it.

Argument B
The Ironworks Rod should have some sort of prestige associated with it.
The prestige of the Ironworks Rod was formerly its impressive stats.
The Halcyon Rod Lucis boasts more impressive stats than the Ironworks Rod.
∴ The Ironworks Rod no longer holds any prestige.

Argument C
The Ironworks Rod should have some sort of prestige associated with it.
The Ironworks Rod no longer holds any prestige.
∴ The Ironworks Rod should be altered in some way to restore prestige.


Argument D
The consequent argument for stat-improvements:
The achievement to obtain Ironworks Rod is very difficult and time consuming.
Halcyon Rod Lucis is comparatively easier and less time consuming.
The Ironworks Rod should be altered in some way to restore prestige.
∴ Ironworks Rod should be better made better than Halcyon Rod Lucis.


Argument E
The consequent argument for an altered physical appearance:
The Ironworks Rod should be altered in some way to restore prestige.
∴ The Ironworks Rod should be given a unique, stand-out appearance.

Counterpoints that have been addressed:

"You don't even have Ironworks." http://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodest...t/category/31/

You get a rare title in addition to the rod.
∴ The Ironworks Rod should not be altered in some way to restore prestige.
You attacked argument B, with the conclusion that Arguments B, C, D, and E are wrong.

Countered with:
The title is not for getting the rod, it is for the previous achievement.
The title is not very stand-out, and most assume it's DoM-related.
∴ The title doesn't add any prestige to the rod.
∴ The soundness of all arguments presented is unaffected.

Luminary Tools are just an achivement.
The Luminary Tools have no purpose.
Ironworks Rod is also just an achievement.
∴ The Ironworks Rod should not be altered in some way to restore prestige.
You attacked Argument A, with the conclusion that arguments A, B, C, D, and E are wrong.

Countered with:
Luminary Tools are valuable as glamour items, due to their unique apperances.
The Ironworks rod is not valuable as a glamour item.
∴ The Ironworks Rod cannot be compared to Luminary Tools.
∴ The soundness of all arguments presented is unaffected.

Fisher already got something special.
∴ The Ironworks Rod should not be altered in some way to restore prestige.
You attacked no arguments presented, with the conclusion that Arguments B, C, D, and E are wrong.
This argument was entertained for a short time, though it is fallacious. It's a red herring.

Lucis is hard to get as well because you must take into account Halcyon Rod > Forager's > Supra.
∴ The Ironworks Rod should not be altered in some way to restore prestige.
You attacked Argument D, with the conclusion that Arguments B, C, D, and E are wrong.

(Repeatedly) countered with:
The process to get Lucis and Ironworks is largely the same. Halcyon Rod > Forager's > Supra applies to both rods.
To get Halcyon Rod Lucis, you must additionally catch 30 HQ clams.
To get Ironworks Rod, you must additionally catch 104 unique fish with much harder catch requirements.
∴ Ironworks Rod is much harder to get than Lucis.
∴ The soundness of all arguments presented is unaffected.

Ironworks Rod is still useful for retainers.
∴ The Ironworks Rod should not be altered in some way to restore prestige.
You attacked the evidence for Arguments B and C, with the conclusion that Arguments B, C, D, and E are wrong.

(Repeatedly) countered with:
Each additional Halcyon Rod Lucii, requires you to catch 33 fish.
One, two, three, and four additional Halcyon Rod Lucii require 33, 66, 99, and 132 fish respectively.
Ironworks Rod requires 104 unique fish with much harder catch requirements.
Halcyon Rod Lucis is better stats-wise and has opportunity for future upgrades.
Retainers do not require the rod, it simply makes gearing them easier.
Not all fishers have fisher retainers.
∴ Halcyon Rod Lucis is a more reasonable option unless you require rods for 4 retainers.
∴ Halcyon Rod Lucis holds more promise for the future.
∴ The usefulness of Ironworks Rod for retainers is questionable.
∴ Ironworks Rod does not benefit all fishers.
∴ The soundness of all arguments presented is unaffected.

Forager's Rod was also difficult to get and has been replaced as well.
∴ Ironworks Rod served to be replaced anyway.
∴ The Ironworks Rod should not be altered in some way to restore prestige.
You attacked Argument D, with the conclusion that Arguments B, C, D, and E are wrong.

Countered with:
Forager's Rod, at a time, was a necessary progression step.
Ironworks Rod was never needed for anything.
∴ Forager's Rod was not replaced in the same way that Ironworks Rod has been.
∴ The soundness of all arguments presented is unaffected.

The Master rings are not good stats-wise.
The Master rings are also not a good glamour item.
∴ The Ironworks Rod should not be given a unique, stand-out appearance.
∴ The Ironworks Rod should not be altered in some way to restore prestige.
You attacked arguments A and E, with the conclusion that Arguments B, C, D, and E are wrong.

Countered with:
The Master rings are intended for and useful to fresh 50s.
The Master rings have a very very unique appearance, unlike the Ironworks Rod.
∴ Master rings do, even still, serve a purpose.
∴ Master rings do have the possibility to be used as unique glamour items.
∴ The soundness of all arguments presented is unaffected.

Making gearing up in an MMO easier is standard practice.
This game has done it in the past already with uncapped Myth, DF coil, etc.
∴ Ironworks Rod served to be replaced anyway.
∴ The Ironworks Rod should not be altered in some way to restore prestige.
You attacked the conclusion of Argument A, with the conclusion that Arguments A, B, C, D, and E are wrong.

Countered with:
Never before has such a difficult achievement reward been rendered useless for any purpose (to include glamours) outright.
None of your examples rendered anything obsolete.
Going by the past, gear is typically only rendered obsolete every two patches.
Ironworks Rod was replaced after one patch.
∴ Ironworks Rod is not comparable to Myth, DF coil, etc.
∴ Ironworks Rod should not have been rendered useless, and especially not so soon.
∴ The soundness of all arguments presented is unaffected.

Miner, Botanist, and Fisher do not need Lucis.
Supra is good enough for all current content.
∴ Lucis Tools are unnecessary upgrades too.
∴ Ironworks Rod being replaced is no big deal.
∴ The Ironworks Rod should not be altered in some way to restore prestige.
You attacked Argument B, with the conclusion that Arguments B, C, D and E are wrong.

Countered with:
Lucis tools are obviously to prepare us for the future.
Ironworks Rod was replaced before it served any purpose.
∴ The replacement of Ironworks Rod is not comparable to the replacement of Supra for Miner and Botanist.
∴ Ironworks Rod should not have been replaced already.
∴ The soundness of all arguments presented is unaffected.

Supra also requires 1 Mastercraft Demimateria and 10 Fieldcraft III Demimateria.
Lucis also requires 20 Moonstones and 60 Glacier Crystals.
∴ Lucis is hard to get as well.
∴ You are curtailing information to suit your argument.
∴ The Ironworks Rod should not be altered in some way to restore prestige.
You attacked Argument D, with the conclusion that Arguments B, C, D, and E are wrong. This is essentially the same as the second argument from you I listed. As such, I'll just repeat that bit.

(Repeatedly) countered with:
The process to get Lucis and Ironworks is largely the same. Halcyon Rod > Forager's > Supra applies to both rods.
To get Halcyon Rod Lucis, you must additionally catch 30 HQ clams.
To get Ironworks Rod, you must additionally catch 104 unique fish with much harder catch requirements.
∴ Ironworks Rod is much harder to get than Lucis.
∴ The soundness of all arguments presented is unaffected.

Any curtailed information was curtailed because it's not worth talking about. The extras for Supra are needed for both rods. If you're going to bring up the extra reqs for Lucis, you're also going to need to acknowledge that only Ironworks requires Forager's armor. And a full set of Forager's, if purchased instead of worked toward, costs more than 60 Glacier Crystals and 20 Moonstones.

To my knowledge, this is the only similar thread:
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...=1#post2730839

[liev]

A visual comparison of fishing rods to illustrate how plain and boring the Ironworks is:

[DarkmoonVael]

The ironworks rod is not the only thing you get for this achievement, you also get one of the rarest titles in the game. I have been fishing for a long time, and the lucis has taken a lot of effort to get as well, as it requires the original halcyon rod, then the foragers, then the upgrade to lucis. If done when these were new, it also took a lot of time and dedication. The ironworks can also be given to multiple retainers, as it can be bought from the calamity salvager for less than 4800gil. With all the above taken into account, then no the ironworks really does not need to be brought up to the same level or made better than the lucis. I have the ironworks and the lucis, i also expected the ironworks to be surpassed if more gathering tools were released.

Also, the ironworks was a bonus and benefit that only we as fishers got, no other gathering class in the game got something like this.

I know this is not the answer you were hoping for, but the ironworks still has many benefits, and people sometimes forget what it was like keeping up with fishing at the time, and all the work that had to go to get the lucis, not just the current stage from supra>lucis.

[ruskie]

I myself am still planing on getting me ironworks one eventually. It's a worthy achievment. Sadly am only 5/106 so far since I don't regulary fish.

[liev]

you also get one of the rarest titles in the game.

It's hardly a stand-out title. Without knowing that it's from fishing, most assume that it's to do with DoM classes.

The ironworks can also be given to multiple retainers, as it can be bought from the calamity salvager for less than 4800gil.

You can buy a Halcyon Rod & do an entire second & third Lucis for less effort than one Ironworks Fishing Rod. It's 86/119 big fish vs. 106 big fish (most of which require more gathering than the supra/lucis fish anyway).

lucis has taken a lot of effort to get as well, as it requires the original halcyon rod, then the foragers, then the upgrade to lucis

You have to do Halcyon Rod > Forager's > Supra > Ironworks Rod too.
Even so, Halcyon Rod > Forager's > Supra > Lucis is still much much easier than Ironworks Rod.

Halcyon Rod > Forager's > Supra > Lucis
20 of one fish, 303 min gathering
3 of one fish, 348 min gathering
30 of one fish, 357 min gathering
...53 big fish total, 357 minimum gathering

Ironworks Fishing Rod
106 unique big fish, 393 minimum gathering

[BobbinT]

... and so is with luminary tools. It's just achievements. ^^;

[liev]

... and so is with luminary tools. It's just achievements. ^^;

Luminary Tools are at least valuable as glamours due to their unique appearances. The Ironworks Rod is not.

Either:
A) The Ironworks Rod should be made better than or at least on par with the Lucis. It's much harder & more time consuming to obtain, so the stats should reflect this. (Preferred)
or
B) The appearance of the Ironworks Rod should be altered so that it is at least worthwhile as a glamour item. It's very plain and boring. There's nothing special about it.
or
C) Both!? I can hope!

[liev]

Also, the ironworks was a bonus and benefit that only we as fishers got, no other gathering class in the game got something like this.

I missed this point. Actually, the Ironworks Fishing Rod was added in the same update that gave Miner and Botanist the Forager's offhand tools, upgrades exclusive to those two classes.
http://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodest...18d0d45bf52d59

Note that
1) Miner and Botanist upgrades can be purchased with gil. Only the fisher upgrade requires the player to actually work.

2) Only the fisher upgrade has been replaced. The Miner and Botanist offhand tools are still best in slot.

Edit 2/06
This argument is a red herring and not relevant to the argument presented in the OP.

If you're concerned with fairness to Miner and Botanist, make a separate suggestion thread. The point of this post is that fisher had to work, and work hard to obtain the rod. It is my stance that the rod should at least have a unique appearance if its use was going to be limited to a single major patch.

[Espritduo]

Just so you know, you don't even get a title with the rod, as was mentioned. The title is gotten from the previous achievement, for catching 100 fish. The rod is the ultimate achievement after that for catching 106 fish.

[DarkmoonVael]

It's hardly a stand-out title. Without knowing that it's from fishing, most assume that it's to do with DoM classes.



You can buy a Halcyon Rod & do an entire second & third Lucis for less effort than one Ironworks Fishing Rod. It's 86/119 big fish vs. 106 big fish (most of which require more gathering than the supra/lucis fish anyway).


You have to do Halcyon Rod > Forager's > Supra > Ironworks Rod too.
Even so, Halcyon Rod > Forager's > Supra > Lucis is still much much easier than Ironworks Rod.

Halcyon Rod > Forager's > Supra > Lucis
20 of one fish, 303 min gathering
3 of one fish, 348 min gathering
30 of one fish, 357 min gathering
...53 big fish total, 357 minimum gathering

Ironworks Fishing Rod
106 unique big fish, 393 minimum gathering

Irrespective of not "being a stand out title" it is, non the less a very rare title. Also, people not knowing where it comes from is hardly that big a deal.

If you believe 2-4 lucis fishing rods are easier than 2-4 ironworks, then well, what can i say. Dedicated fishers will naturally get the ironworks rod as well....

Also, please do not decontextualise quotes, you (deliberatly or not) missed out the very pertinent point i made of if you kept up with the halcyon rod upgrade as soon as they were introduced, it required a lot of dedication to do. The point in my post, which you seem to have missed, is that it may seem easy now, but it wasnt when you were doing it as it was released.

I missed this point. Actually, the Ironworks Fishing Rod was added in the same update that gave Miner and Botanist the Forager's offhand tools, upgrades exclusive to those two classes.
http://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodest...18d0d45bf52d59

Note that
1) Miner and Botanist upgrades can be purchased with gil. Only the fisher upgrade requires the player to actually work.
2) Only the fisher upgrade has been replaced. The Miner and Botanist offhand tools are still best in slot.

This point is spurious at best, the other gathring classes have thier OFFHAND which is purchasable, not the MAINHAND, which is what the fishing rod is. No main hand can be purchased with gil in the manner you are claiming.

The fisher upgrade is not the only one that has been replaced, the miner gets thier lucis as does the botanist.

Please please please link me the miner and botanist i80 tool that has been replaced with the lucis.

Just so you know, you don't even get a title with the rod, as was mentioned. The title is gotten from the previous achievement, for catching 100 fish. The rod is the ultimate achievement after that for catching 106 fish.

You know i stand corrected, you are absolutely right here, its the achievement before the ironworks rod that gets you the title . However the sentiment still stands that there is more to "showoff" with than just the ironworks rod if a fisher wishes to show thier dedication to whoever looks at them.

... and so is with luminary tools. It's just achievements. ^^;

Shhhhh.....dont point this out .