Job and Subjob system instead of classes?

[Corrderio]

No class is unique, no class brings anything to a party (recent healing changes somewhat changes this, but all frontline are still exactly the same with a different weapon graphic.)

Nothing works well in FFXIV, which is why they're introducing the job system. They wouldn't be adding the job system if they decided the class system is absolutely perfect.

And? Nothing stopping SE from doing what you said with the classes.

[Jennestia]

And? Nothing stopping SE from doing what you said with the classes.

Clearly there is, or else we wouldn't be getting a job system.

[notebene]

No class is unique, no class brings anything to a party (recent healing changes somewhat changes this, but all frontline are still exactly the same with a different weapon graphic.)

Nothing works well in FFXIV, which is why they're introducing the job system. They wouldn't be adding the job system if they decided the class system is absolutely perfect.

I guess I never thought it was 'perfect'.

So it's mostly about the paradigm of the party system then? Trying to establish 'the holy trinity and friends' so the people that form parties can decide who to take and who to not take with them in any situation based on their job name? I thought it 'might' be mostly about that, but I didn't want to make any assumptions.

I guess on the one hand, it would have been nice if 'the world' (that our characters live in) wasn't put together in such a way that lends itself the system, rather than abandoning a more organic progression in favor of the old paradigm of needing a tank, and a healer, and some dps people, to make a party.

It just seems like the holy trinity strangles creativity when it comes to bringing a character into a virtual world, then deciding what you want to become. I've also been playing a bit of Rift lately, and that was supposed to be this amazing thing where you have this 1-of-4 base class, and then you can mix together all this wonderful stuff and be whatever you want. But at the end of the day, the complaints are the same thing as in any MMO: Where are the tanks and healers?

It would be nice to go to a dungeon with 5 people, and across the 5 people, there was enough of what you needed to do to overcome the situation.

But at least I understand it 'seems' like it's mostly about the trinity, and getting some clear cut labels on people to make it easier for the Type A leaders to decide whether you will be useful to their group or not.

That sounds fun, for people who really need that to hang on to. I hope they, as they say, also keep the base class concepts around that they have now, where you pick up 'cards' that you learn from various classes and put your deck together and then go out in the world as your base class (depending on your tool) and your deck of cards. That seems new and interesting and different to me still

Thank you for responding! Many of my questions get buried, probably because they aren't very good questions, but often times I get curious as to why people are fighting about things I don't really understand.

[Corrderio]

Clearly there is, or else we wouldn't be getting a job system.

Job system was mostly for the whiners that wanted "FF jobs" or whatever the dumb excuse was. Nothing is stopping SE from making the higher tier abilities restricted to the class it came from.

[odette]

job system ok
Subjob no thanks
idk many ffxi fan players want ffxi-2, but SE say ffxiv is diffenrent game, for me yes please.
if you like ffxi go back, dont ruin this game

[Gennosuke]

Job system was mostly for the whiners that wanted "FF jobs" or whatever the dumb excuse was. Nothing is stopping SE from making the higher tier abilities restricted to the class it came from.

Gee, for SE to take on such a decision, The vast majority of fans must have been 'Whiners'.
And ofcourse you're the level headed one whom they chose to ignore.

Dumb excuse? Class uniqueness and traditional FF job system is a dumb excuse? are you serious? I guess you must have hated the majority of FF series in that case.

[Seikninkuru]

Gee, for SE to take on such a decision, The vast majority of fans must have been 'Whiners'.
And ofcourse you're the level headed one whom they chose to ignore.

Dumb excuse? Class uniqueness and traditional FF job system is a dumb excuse? are you serious? I guess you must have hated the majority of FF series in that case.

Yes they are dumb excuses and yes the majority of FF games are boring and uninteresting.

[Davorok]

A lot of peeps seem to be having difficulty understanding the concept of the Job System so I will try to use a real world analogy to explain. Military Operations.

If you are fighting a battle in an outdoor environment you want soldiers that are cross-trained in many weapons, tactics and basic first-aid. This way you can adapt to changing battlefield environments, pick up a fallen soldiers weapon, apply first-aid, even run away and regroup to try another assault tactic. Open World battles are less about teamwork and more about attrition and adaptability.

Special Forces Missions are quite different. You have a small group of highly trained specialists who must act as a team, each one carrying out his role to perfection in order to achieve a clear objective, whether it be capturing/killing Bin Laden, rescuing hostages, sabotage or even intelligence gathering. Each team member has a specialty (with some cross-class training) ie., Heavy Weapons, Sniper, Engineer/Demolitions, Medic, Communications/IT(computers). Think of Team Fortress or even Halo as examples. Yes each soldier can do the others job in a pinch but for the team to operate in top form and effeciency, each member must use his specialties.

So just think of FFXIV Classes as the well rounded, cross trained soldier that can be sent into any situation and has a decent chance at success if he can adapt to changing environs and enemies. (Open-World Quests and Grinding)

Think of FFXIV Jobs as Navy Seals or Army Rangers (specialists) who are sent in to a specific location to do a specific mission and rely heavily on teamwork to achieve their objective. (Dungeons & Raids).

I realize the analogy kinda falls apart if we are to believe that a Navy Seal/Ranger is useless out in the field apart from his team but I suspect/guess that The Grand Companies are somehow going to magically "imbue us" with these extra abilities/jobs just for the duration of the Mission/Dungeon/Raid.

Some of my thoughts anyway...probably wrong...usually am...so move along...nothing to see here.

http://youtu.be/4EYlXay0njE

[Khal_Drogo]

My reply lies below:


Let me add on to that list Jennestia:

Or how about the copy pasted Races with different names from XI?

Or the never ending request to copy paste the search feature from XI?

Or Chocobos and Airships from XI?

Or Auction House request and current analysis from XI?

Or Simplified Food system from XI?

Or... someone else can continue.

Please use another line from now on Winnipeg.

SE itself isn't listening to your anti XI rants with their decisions. If they did, the game would be shut down by now.
In the end it's all about what makes the game successful and bringing the customer base and attracting the masses back.

I will point out again this is not a literal request to copy paste XI, imo system like FFT would also work perfect. It's the concept of what works rather than the idea of cloning.

Thank you SO much for that list Gennosuke. Ppl are so incredibly stupid; it never ceases to amaze me. How oblivious can you be? You could literally go on forever. And, I can't stand when ppl try to bring up how much other FF titles had in common with one another; as if that justifies the "coincidental" similarities between XIV and XI. They aren't virtually identical because they're drawing from the same source. They're virtually identical because SE saw the success they had with XI, and wanted to do their best to make a new MMO that could bring in XI fans, as well as tap into the market that draws casual players like ppl who play WoW. What ended up happening was a really shitty attempt at an XI clone. If you're gonna do something, don't do it half-assed. The majority of XI's problems could still be addressed without too much adjustment in XIV. The job system is one of the major ones. The battle-pace is another (far too fast). And the spamming of abilities, cures, and buffs. Get rid of that, and you're practically set. Endless grinding and bogus exp loss from a death were two of the biggest issues ppl had w/ XI; having to sit through nm spawn times ranging from 1 hour to 3+ days for some of the most trivial items was another one; and limited race/sex choices. Most, if not all, have been or will be addressed very soon. All that's left is the need to implement some sort of job/sub job system ****SIMILAR**** to XI, and the game is practically a guaranteed success. Did ya'll catch that? ***similar*** to XI -not a clone. Anybody understand the difference?

[Khal_Drogo]

Sometimes i wish they would not have used the word "class" as the meta descriptor for weapons and there skill pools. People are still having difficulty wrapping there heads around the games base system even almost a year+ after the playing public got there hands on the game. I Cant really fault either side though it is kind of a out there concept at least when it comes to games.

Makes me chuckle a bit when some can not see that the armory is a evolution of the job/subjob system though.

Oh, Griss, you forgot the prefix on your word there: I think you meant to say *de-evolution

The armory system is the epitome of everything wrong w/ XI's job/sub job system. In XI, only a small handful of sub jobs were deemed "acceptable" for partying. And I assure you, only a small handful of actions/traits are going to be deemed "acceptable" eventually as well. Why, you might ask? Because SE couldn't even handle balancing job/sub jobs when there were only 240 possible combinations to be had (16 jobs w/ 15 possible subs for each job, therefore 16(15), which is 240). So, tell me, how do you think they're going to be able to handle, balancing the "infinite" number of actions and traits that ppl have at their disposal? They won't be able to, plain and simple. While I hope SE realizes that XI's mechanics were brilliant, and decide to make some sort of XIV/XI hybrid, some part of me almost wants things to continue as they are, just so I can say, "told ya so," later. Luckily, I'm not that vindictive, so I'm going to put my "2 cents in" and hope that SE listens to reason.

Cavemen probably had no rules, restrictions, or anything like it: they could do, pretty much, whatever the hell they wanted -just like classes in XIV. XIV's armory system is no more an evolved form of XI's sub job system, than Cavemen are an evolved form of modern day human beings.