Translation Team: Please stop doing this...

[Aeyis]

Rather then trying to find your own interpretation, do you not feel it is more sensible to respond to the arguments I made via the quotes I refered to?

Well, when it comes to wording we’re given a great deal of freedom

versus

A lot of times the Japanese team will then go back and look at the English translations or the French translations and get ideas on how they can change the Japanese text in turn."

Now if we look at the actually dialogue, what do we find:
Radical changes in the dialogue between characters. Story facts are intact. Characters are often portrayed differently (because they act differently, they different responses)
Important names may drop in one language but not another. (or mention of this or that)

If you look at the interview in a stoic way you will find that:
- They have a great deal of freedom
- Feedback does exist. Extend of which is unknown. (from the interview)


What it comes down to is basically they change a lot of the dialogue as they see the need to. They are not nearly working as close with other teams (in regards to story dialogue), as you imply. Not my assumption. A fact based on actual dialogue ingame.

snip

while this is more in line with titles, it does show that their job is to do more than just do direct translations, they have to translate in a way that not only is the content understood, but that the same or similar cultural influences are passed along.

Appreciate the link. Its a more interesting read then the previous one.

[Viridiana]

Rather then trying to find your own interpretation, do you not feel it is more sensible to respond to the arguments I made via the quotes I refered to?

So, to recap:

You want the EN to stay truer to the "original" JP text.
I pointed out that the "original" JP text is in fact often modified by the "derivative" translations.
You say that this must be mistaken.
I link Ferne discussing how the "original" is often modified by the "derivative" translations.
You assert that the story dialogue's meaning changes radically between languages.

To be clear, I've seen this assertion often. And sometimes it's true. I'm aware that Haurchefant, for one, is characterized much differently in JP than EN. I really don't think it's as much of an issue as you're making it out to be.

[Gunspec]

And sometimes it's true. I'm aware that Haurchefant, for one, is characterized much differently in JP than EN. I really don't think it's as much of an issue as you're making it out to be.

Actually, I think Haurchefant was dialed back in the English version this patch, to be more like his Japanese equivalent. At least, I didn't feel a huge difference between his English text and Japanese voice this time. Maybe pointing it out led to some changes? And Urianger didn't spew poetry out of his mouth this patch either.

[Viridiana]

Actually, I think Haurchefant was dialed back in the English version this patch, to be more like his Japanese equivalent. At least, I didn't feel a huge difference between his English text and Japanese voice this time. Maybe pointing it out led to some changes? And Urianger didn't spew poetry out of his mouth this patch either.

Yeah, I think in the patches since 2.0 they've been moving the EN of Haurchefant closer to the JP. In base 2.0, though? I hear there's a big disconnect. I can only really speak to differences that have been big enough for people to fuss over them on the forums, because I don't play JP. 2.0 Haurchefant I can concede. 2.55 Midgardsormr I'll argue about. From what people are saying in this thread about 2.0 Yda, I'd have to argue that both languages are aiming to show silliness. I can't speak to any Iceheart differences without more information.

But, yeah, this is where I'm coming from when I say I don't think the admitted changes in localization are a huge deal.

Edit:

Examples of change of character would be a character using ''my lady'' and flowery expressions like ''it is a pleasure to make your aquintance!'' when they dont use those words in a different language. Words or expressions like that can give you an entirely different perspective on a character.

It is not simply characters going 180 in personality that qualifies as change of character.

Honestly, using greetings is probably the worst example you could choose. There's really no good way to translate greetings. And that's true of a lot of common phrases in languages.

Anyway, as far as what constitutes a change of character, I'd say it's anything that *significantly* changes how you see a character. Are Midgardsormr and Urianger different characters in EN than in JP? Yes. Do I think it affects the story at all? Not really.

Does using a different greeting constitute a change of character? Not usually.

[Gunspec]

Honestly, using greetings is probably the worst example you could choose. There's really no good way to translate greetings. And that's true of a lot of common phrases in languages.

Good point, but you just made me think of some funny examples. If the guy says "konichiwa" don't translate that as "Salutations and greetings, honored friend!" And I think that's the only real problem I have with the common speech in this game, sometimes a modern Japanese phrase is turned into old fashion fantasy English gibberish for no reason.

[Niwashi]

That is quite true. However for example American English phrases many things differently then UK English. And there are variants of those as well.
This is why I feel that the best localization should focus on translating, rather then phrasing. Make use of words with exact meaning, instead of expressions.

Currently I feel that a lot of color is added where originally there was none.

The notion that there originally was none is clearly false. All Japanese dialog is full of nuances that English simply doesn't have.

Was it written in casual grammar, polite grammar, formal grammar? English doesn't have any of those, using the same form for all occasions, but you can't form a sentence in Japanese without choosing one. What sort of pronouns are used? Where English just has universal words like "I" and "you", Japanese has a wide array of descriptors to choose from. While any of them indicate whether you're speaking of yourself or your listener, the choice of which is used also gives a great deal of insight into both the speaker's personality and how they feel about the person they're talking to. That can't be done in a language like English that doesn't have any choice in what words are used as pronouns. When a character mentions someone's name, there again, in English all you get is knowing which character is being mentioned, wheras in Japanese the way a person's name is said indicates the speaker's relationship to (and in many cases their feelings about) that person. And so on...

All these sorts of nuances that are built into the way the Japanese language works are used by Japanese authors and screenwriters as one of the primary ways that characters' personalities are expressed and conveyed to the audience. And they're all lost as soon as it's translated into English. Since direct translation alone strips out most of the personality from characters, localization teams often find it necessary to find ways to phrase things that will bring some of that lost information back in. Since English has less to work with in this regard than Japanese, the results sometimes sound a bit rough or stilted or flowery as the case may be, but that's better than having nothing to go by to figure out the characters' personalities just because the original information was lost in translation.

Or as they put it:

And then, again, a lot of the quests, when we do our translations, we will some times add things — Japanese can be a very vague language — a lot of important information is either cut completely or it’s implied heavily. It can be kind of confusing for western players and readers, so we’ll go in and tweak things to make it a little easier to understand and a little bit clearer.

I don't know, personally I would much rather enjoy the original writing rather then someone else's take on what the writing should have been like.

Ok, now that gets more into content rather than color. When I said it can help to add some linguistic color back in after they've been forced to eliminate a lot of the original color, I was talking about phrasing and word choice - the sort of details this thread is about. When it's a matter of changing the content of what's being said, that's a different issue. Occasionally that too may be necessary to adjust slightly in order for something to be clear in a different language, but I'd agree that it's something that needs to be kept to a minimum.

[Aeyis]

So, to recap:

You want the EN to stay truer to the "original" JP text.
I pointed out that the "original" JP text is in fact often modified by the "derivative" translations.
You say that this must be mistaken.
I link Ferne discussing how the "original" is often modified by the "derivative" translations.
You assert that the story dialogue's meaning changes radically between languages.

To be clear, I've seen this assertion often. And sometimes it's true. I'm aware that Haurchefant, for one, is characterized much differently in JP than EN. I really don't think it's as much of an issue as you're making it out to be.

You've still not responded to my actual arguments. Only made conclusions (based on what? I cant see).
Is it really that hard to admit you misinterpreted what was said? (trowing you a bone here)
I mean the very dialogue indicates that the level of feedback is low.
Let me ask you then, how often do you read/listen to the japanese dialogue? And the english one?


I read/listen to both languages in each cutscene with voice. While I know my preferences are my opinion, there is a large difference in characterization overall. Because there is a lot of fluff. In my experience rather then sometimes, this applies ''almost all the time'' in regards to the main scenario dialogue.

Examples of change of character would be a character using ''my lady'' and flowery expressions like ''it is a pleasure to make your aquintance!'' when they dont use those words in a different language. Words or expressions like that can give you an entirely different perspective on a character.

It is not simply characters going 180 in personality that qualifies as change of character.


It is my opinion that adding fluff should not be done to any part of the dialogue that related to the MSQ. It is a fact that it is currently heavily done.
I feel it detracts too much from the value of the 'original story/original characters.'


Old english, or Archaic english...if it fits the character, and its the intent of the script writers (whether english or japanese, or german or french):
Gladly. If its entirely different from it, then I feel that would only devalue the product.

You seem to have mistaken me for someone claiming that the texts are perfectly translated and meticulously maintain characterization across all four languages. At no time have I made such an outrageous claim, nor have I said that the idiosyncrasies of the EN text have been added back into JP. My only claim has been that there is no "original" text, because each of the localization teams has a hand in crafting the story.

But that is where you appear to be incorrect. I dont see anything in the interview you linked that states they had a hand in writing the main scenario quests, apart from the bit mentioning Louis. The parts you quote relate to naming monsters etc.
From the interview its strongly implied that at most they would be consulted on the text of certain (deemed) important parts of the MSQ.

Actually, I think Haurchefant was dialed back in the English version this patch, to be more like his Japanese equivalent. At least, I didn't feel a huge difference between his English text and Japanese voice this time. Maybe pointing it out led to some changes? And Urianger didn't spew poetry out of his mouth this patch either.

I enjoyed that scene after the Chrysalis.

Urianger walks in:
-English dialogue: some long poetic verse.
-Japanese dialogue: ''I heard everything you talked about"


Edit: Viridiana
Many of the dialogue differences only appear to be subtle changes of character, but they will add up.
In the Urianger example him entering while saying he overheard all of what you said helped convey that feeling of his hurt better then his use of the poetic verse.
In the Iceheart example, from the English text I felt more empathic towards her intentions because she didnt choose to insult you.

Perhaps its bias on my part, but I feel like the japanese dialogue makes me care more about the characters.


The english dialogue feels more like theather dialogue; as if they are trying their best to act a certain way. The japanese dialogue to me feels more like they the characters simply are who they are. More natural.
Not saying I think all japanese dialogue is stellar tho.

[Gunspec]

We are really getting off track here. The purpose of the thread was basically to say that this:
http://i.imgur.com/b9J7It4.jpg
should be more like this:



While I don't mind some "flavourful language" on some of the characters INCLUDING primals, dialing it back on everyone and outright erasing it on some of the scions would be really nice. There are actually a lot of characters, guards, store owners, etc, who do NOT speak like a bad attempt at Shakespeare. When a main story scenario suddenly features a character saying something really wacky, it pulls me out of the story as I remember "oh yeah, we are doing that, aren't we".

[Seig345]

Urianger is in thy library, expanding thy lexicon. Cope.

Honestly though, over the course of playing this game, I've picked up on what those words mean through the context.

[TouchandFeel]

@ Mugiawara

Some good reads that use some older forms of English that can be reminiscent of the forms of speech used in the game. Keep in mind they will be similar and not exact as the game uses more archaic forms of English as inspirations for flavor and don't exactly replicate them.

- Shakespeare (which is early Modern English, not Old English!). While Romeo and Juliet is the most well known of his works, I also find it to be much easier to read, so I would suggest Hamlet,Macbeth, Much Ado About Nothing or A Midsummer's Night Dream as the language used in those are a little more convoluted, yet the stories are still more interesting than his historics like the Henrys.
- L'Morte D'Arthur by Thomas Mallory. This is sort of the go to for Arthurian legend as it was the first modern compilation of Arthurian legend and pretty much is what all other takes on Arthurian legend are based off these days.
- If you are truly bold, read The Canterbury Tales by Chaucer. It is written in late Middle English (the precursor to Modern English) and is to most a bunch of indiscernible gibberish. Someone actually posted the beginning of it in this thread on pg. 12.

Anyways, that is some good reading that features some of the older forms of English that would be worth checking out if you have not already.

As far as "pirate speak", yeah you're not going to really find many examples of it in literature, there was a little bit in, sort of in Treasure Island, but " pirate speak" is more an invention of cinema and television. Slightly tangential but you should check out some of the old swashbuckling movies of the silver screen (i. e. Black and white) starring the likes of Douglas Fairbanks, Erroll Flynn and Burt Lancaster. Classic stuff.

P.S. this response is in no way meant to be rude or condescending, as I feel that the material I listed above is something everyone should take a gander at.