Thread: Raiding Progression Thread (2.4 and onwards)

Originally Posted by HoodRat

That's where I have to disagree with you. I'm sure that, even after fcob has echo and with people doing savage in 130 gear, savage is still harder. However, there is a significant difference between doing savage in 110, which is what it was designed for, and doing it in 130, which is overgeared. Which brings me to my point that, is clearing content months after it was released and being overgeared for it considered progression? Sure you can use 110 gear for it now, but you can also remove the echo in fcob, which you are no longer tracking.

I understand what you're saying, and while I'm considering what you and Steel said above (including credit still for kills with echo) - there is a HUGE difference between non-echo vs echo standard Coil, vs. the difference between Savage in i110 vs. 130 gear. I don't disagree that Savage, at least parts of it, might be made a bit easier with i130 gear, but it's not like going through older content with echo on, believe me. There's many additional mechanics added in that will simply just destroy groups regardless of how much higher their HP is; having 1k to 2k extra HP will not let a group survive against many of the instant one-shots in the fights. Again, I highly encourage you to give them a solid try and see what I mean. I would consider Savage still the hardest thing to do in this game (by a HUGE margin), so yes, it's most definitely still progression. Put it this way, downing T13 with average i levels of 110 to 115 (when the fight first came out) is still nowhere near as difficult as any of the Savage fights.

In light of this discussion however, I think I will continue to track all kills (including FCoB); I've considered it more and it's healthy for this server in general to continue to encourage more raiding in general from more groups and free companies. If people do feel strongly about this (I welcome more opinions on this), I see no reason to not celebrate kills all the way to Heavensward.

Originally Posted by HoodRat

That's where I have to disagree with you. I'm sure that, even after fcob has echo and with people doing savage in 130 gear, savage is still harder. However, there is a significant difference between doing savage in 110, which is what it was designed for, and doing it in 130, which is overgeared. Which brings me to my point that, is clearing content months after it was released and being overgeared for it considered progression? Sure you can use 110 gear for it now, but you can also remove the echo in fcob, which you are no longer tracking.

There's only 1 real Savage fight you can cheese through in 130, which is Savage 6. With 7, you still have to deal petrifaction/shriek/voice. With 8, you still have to deal with Allagan Field(which is 5x damage, instead of 2x) and tower shenanigans. With 9, you have to deal greatly increased HF damage, meteors during last phase, tank vulnerability up, etc...As opposed to 13, which, even before echo, in i130, was trivial at worst. Increased HP generally negates the danger of Megaflare, Rage, Giga...

Essentially, 13, especially with echo, isn't really as much to write home about any more. Savage(other than 6) is still an enormous undertaking because of the nature of the mechanics.

Edit: Also congrats to Mario and Spartan for downing 9 and 7. The coordination required for 7 especially is an absolute nightmare.