Raiding Progression Thread (2.4 and onwards)

**HoodRat** · 04-25-2015 10:05 AM

I guess I just see it differently, idk.

**Kezy_Kaatapoh** · 04-25-2015 11:02 AM

I highly recommend you give putting together a Savage party a shot. Not only will you see why we still consider it progression content, but it's TONS of fun. T8 Savage is easily my favorite fight in this game after doing it. I couldn't encourage trying it more.

**HoodRat** · 04-25-2015 11:04 AM

I have before, but honestly I don't see the point...except for T9 since I like that title but eh...it's whatever

**Asherek** · 04-25-2015 11:42 AM

The point is it's difficult content that isn't trivialized by better gear. Echo based coils can be cheesed with i130 gear. Savage cannot be. If you're asking what the point of tackling difficult content or take challenges (like doing 4-man T9, stuff like that) then I'm sure not anything I say will make you see things differently. It appears that you may want different things out of the game, which is perfectly fine, but ultimately not the point of threads like this.

Regardless, I welxome differing opinions or discussion in general.

**HoodRat** · 04-25-2015 12:06 PM

That's where I have to disagree with you. I'm sure that, even after fcob has echo and with people doing savage in 130 gear, savage is still harder. However, there is a significant difference between doing savage in 110, which is what it was designed for, and doing it in 130, which is overgeared. Which brings me to my point that, is clearing content months after it was released and being overgeared for it considered progression? Sure you can use 110 gear for it now, but you can also remove the echo in fcob, which you are no longer tracking.

**PapaSteel** · 04-25-2015 01:41 PM

The more I think about it, the more I find myself being swayed by Hood Rat.

Judging the validity of an accomplishment is never easy. For example, we can swear up and down that savage are still by FAR the most difficult fights in the game, and it's a noteworthy achievement for our server to have them cleared. But most people have no baseline of comparison to actually understand how insane 7-9 still is, only our word to go on.
Similarly, the argument can be made that a team who has spent MONTHS pushing for a clear should not have their hard work dismissed because they took too long. In the same vein as the 'what should we do, just leave the savage clears empty forever?' argument, I'm imagining the FC which finally beats Bahamut after blood, sweat and tears, only for THEIR clear entry to remain empty forever just because some elitist raiders said so.

Perhaps a new symbol is in order, such as a ■ - symbolizing a group has cleared content after the patch which added it the dutyfinder. After all, we don't fail to recognize brand-new companies that appear on the scene and clear T9 months after echo, and I'm not sure t13 should be any different. In these last two months before 3.0, our progression thread should be a testament for WHY raiding on Brynhildr is healthy instead of continuing the bullshit reasoning that claims you need to transfer to be successful.

**Asherek** · 04-25-2015 01:55 PM

Originally Posted by HoodRat

That's where I have to disagree with you. I'm sure that, even after fcob has echo and with people doing savage in 130 gear, savage is still harder. However, there is a significant difference between doing savage in 110, which is what it was designed for, and doing it in 130, which is overgeared. Which brings me to my point that, is clearing content months after it was released and being overgeared for it considered progression? Sure you can use 110 gear for it now, but you can also remove the echo in fcob, which you are no longer tracking.

I understand what you're saying, and while I'm considering what you and Steel said above (including credit still for kills with echo) - there is a HUGE difference between non-echo vs echo standard Coil, vs. the difference between Savage in i110 vs. 130 gear. I don't disagree that Savage, at least parts of it, might be made a bit easier with i130 gear, but it's not like going through older content with echo on, believe me. There's many additional mechanics added in that will simply just destroy groups regardless of how much higher their HP is; having 1k to 2k extra HP will not let a group survive against many of the instant one-shots in the fights. Again, I highly encourage you to give them a solid try and see what I mean. I would consider Savage still the hardest thing to do in this game (by a HUGE margin), so yes, it's most definitely still progression. Put it this way, downing T13 with average i levels of 110 to 115 (when the fight first came out) is still nowhere near as difficult as any of the Savage fights.

In light of this discussion however, I think I will continue to track all kills (including FCoB); I've considered it more and it's healthy for this server in general to continue to encourage more raiding in general from more groups and free companies. If people do feel strongly about this (I welcome more opinions on this), I see no reason to not celebrate kills all the way to Heavensward.

**AveriliYaeger** · 04-25-2015 02:33 PM

T9 Savage cleared by <Onion> Tonight!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aVs6hgWKIUo

http://onionknightsfc.com/

**Lame_Marine** · 04-25-2015 07:04 PM

What if the group disables and provides proof of clearing without echo? This is if a different symbol is used to track kills from now til Heavensward.

**x-_-ILLUSION-_-x** · 04-26-2015 07:25 AM

Originally Posted by HoodRat

That's where I have to disagree with you. I'm sure that, even after fcob has echo and with people doing savage in 130 gear, savage is still harder. However, there is a significant difference between doing savage in 110, which is what it was designed for, and doing it in 130, which is overgeared. Which brings me to my point that, is clearing content months after it was released and being overgeared for it considered progression? Sure you can use 110 gear for it now, but you can also remove the echo in fcob, which you are no longer tracking.

There's only 1 real Savage fight you can cheese through in 130, which is Savage 6. With 7, you still have to deal petrifaction/shriek/voice. With 8, you still have to deal with Allagan Field(which is 5x damage, instead of 2x) and tower shenanigans. With 9, you have to deal greatly increased HF damage, meteors during last phase, tank vulnerability up, etc...As opposed to 13, which, even before echo, in i130, was trivial at worst. Increased HP generally negates the danger of Megaflare, Rage, Giga...

Essentially, 13, especially with echo, isn't really as much to write home about any more. Savage(other than 6) is still an enormous undertaking because of the nature of the mechanics.

Edit: Also congrats to Mario and Spartan for downing 9 and 7. The coordination required for 7 especially is an absolute nightmare.

Thread: Raiding Progression Thread (2.4 and onwards)

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