In-Game Parser.

[mikecoby]

Pretty hot topic, ya? It's pretty easy to see the division between players who have used parser and those who haven't and don't like the idea. I think it would be fair to say casual players fit into the latter portion. And considering that this game was built to be casual friendly, I think I understand why SE doesn't want it in FFXIV. To be fair, parser can be very helpful for more hardcore players doing top tier content. Being able to see the numbers of an encounter can pin point the any issues, save time and gives a greater understanding of what the problem is and then being able to solve it quicker and more efficiently. Now, having said that, the other side of that argument is that parser can be used as a tool to judge a player based on a number crunch alone. And more importantly, it would bring a divide between the players on this game. You can read this thread and see how divisive parser can be. If parser was to be implemented, I could see the casual group becoming more hesitant to use Duty Finder because they know other players are judging them even more, and having the raw numbers to tells someone they're not doing their job right or that they're a bad player can be really discouraging. Especially for people who play this game just to relax after work or on the weekends.

I've played this game without a parser since 2010 and FF11 before that. I have also played WOW for a good bit and I have to honestly say that without a parser there is less drama and fighting. But on that same note, when I played with a parser on WOW, I noticed players were quicker with their damage, and instances were almost like a rush to see who could do the best damage making everything much faster. It shines under the right usage, but can be abused as well to ridicule, troll and belittle other players who aren't as experienced. We see enough of that as it is, ya? SE knows the problems it causes. It has its pros and cons but they decided against it.

[Nominous]

SE knows the problems it causes. It has its pros and cons but they decided against it.

There's many pros. There's one, singular con. The one con is a fear that is inappropriately pinned on the parser itself, and not the few idiots who are hopelessly toxic in the first place, even if you removed parsing from the equation. Widespread availability doesn't somehow make people more toxic. A person who was harassing you before, will just have new reasons to harass you. Does it change how you feel about them? No. You think they're a jerk regardless. If they didn't have a parser, would they still harass you? They'd find a reason in anything if it meant being annoying.

[Moqi]

Widespread availability doesn't somehow make people more toxic.

That's exactly what happened with hunts when Coil drops were made available with logs - name calling, insult, death threats in shouts. It happened back when they were introduced and it happened again now with Carbontwine and Carboncoat. Toxicity spreads - you can bet that if people start requiring minimun DPS on PF and threat to pars them, it will be picked up by people who would have never though of it othwerise.

There are DPS checks in the game, if you fail them you wipe: that's your clue you need to improve, you don't really need anything else. Go back to the training dummy or talk to your party and come up with a new strategy/rotation, then give it another go and see if this time you can pass. Numbers aren't needed at all - even if there's only one person underperforming, it's still noticeable without knowing exactly how much less DPS he was doing compared to everyone else.

[Nominous]

That's exactly what happened with hunts when Coil drops were made available with logs - name calling, insult, death threats in shouts. It happened back when they were introduced and it happened again now with Carbontwine and Carboncoat. Toxicity spreads - you can bet that if people start requiring minimun DPS on PF and threat to pars them, it will be picked up by people who would have never though of it othwerise.

There are DPS checks in the game, if you fail them you wipe: that's your clue you need to improve, you don't really need anything else. Go back to the training dummy or talk to your party and come up with a new strategy/rotation, then give it another go and see if this time you can pass. Numbers aren't needed at all - even if there's only one person underperforming, it's still noticeable without knowing exactly how much less DPS he was doing compared to everyone else.

I get the comparison. The idea is the same, but the situations are different. Introducing a parser into the game doesn't change the outcome largely, since a large part of the population either A) Has them, or B) Asks their friends to use it if they don't. If someone doesn't know about parsing, and they figure out about it, they likely will fall into one of those two categories. People who don't fall into those categories refuse to acknowledge it's benefits, don't want criticism (which is foolish, considering you can't stop that, even by lack of having a parser), aren't concerned with being better (and by that logic, should understand that they don't have to deal with end-game / the players, or that conversely, the end-game players don't have to deal with them), or a mixture of those. There's no reason to refute having more knowledge. I've said it before, it's not life-threatening for passing or failing content, but you're just limiting yourself needlessly by not having it, and possibly wasting other people's time.

Hunts are different in that it's simply crowded content. People are angry because there's something that's valuable, that's at their fingertips, and they feel denied the right to have that by other players. It brings out the toxicity that's already present, to an open field, where you can witch-hunt and pin blame on others to your hearts content.

Let me pose this question, too.

With parsers being so readily available to the PC audience, and being a huge presence in the game already, what's stopping people from doing that right now? Why haven't we seen these fears of yours come to fruition for upwards of a year and a half of 2.0? PF, in and of itself, is the idea of denying players access to your party based on discrimination. So why, with a system that so readily allows that, have we not seen people requiring a specific parse to show them to join? Hmm?

[Moqi]

With parsers being so readily available to the PC audience, and being a huge presence in the game already, what's stopping people from doing that right now? Why haven't we seen these fears of yours come to fruition for upwards of a year and a half of 2.0? PF, in and of itself, is the idea of denying players access to your party based on discrimination. So why, with a system that so readily allows that, have we not seen people requiring a specific parse to show them to join? Hmm?

They'd have to admit to using one, which is not allowed. At most you can say "no bad players", which is still rude, but not as discriminatory, since it's highly subjective.

My static uses parsers, I know it can have benefits if used the right way. Personally, I've had my healing parsed once when I joined, got told it was roughly the same as the other healer and from then on I've tuned out of every discussion regarding numbers because I couldn't care less - I can still tell who the top DPS in my static is without having a clue of what number he's pulling. When I want to try new things to conserve MP/generate less aggro, I just talk to my co-healer and tank(s) first and if it's feesable we try it out and I watch if it's too straining on either of them, no need for numbers, I can notice if they're using more cooldowns than usual and that's all I need to know I'm not healing enough.

I think the flaw in your reasoning is that you expect parsing to stay limited to end game raids and between people who more or less use parsers already (in the "good" way), like it is now, when it won't likely be the case. Bad attitudes spread more easily than good ones. I'm sure we'll be seeing absurd dps requirements on all kinds of things (we already have PF with absurd min ilvl) and in the end, the toxic envoirment and attitudes it will create will outweight the good benefits it can have on the people who just want to self improve.

Look at speedrunning, solo healing or solo tanking - there's a pattern already of the community taking neutral concept and twisting them to shun players and discriminate. This would only make matters worse.

[LunaHoshino]

(we already have PF with absurd min ilvl)

This is a function of people with terrible DPS. If I make a Ramuh EX PF, I'm putting i110 as the minimum ilvl because putting it any lower raises the risk that the people you get won't be able to get the adds down in time. I've seen it happen on more than one occasion: a group with an average ilvl 100+ (which is over 15 ilvls higher than the minimum requirement) wiping multiple times to Judgment Bolt. That's not a gear issue, that's a "people don't know how to play their jobs" issue. At least people who are i110 might be able to kill the adds simply by virtue of their ilvl even if their rotation is terrible.

It's hardly ridiculous to expect people to be competent at their role if they're going to participate in endgame content. The fact that we can't expect that is what leads to high ilvl requirements and "three strikes you're out" rules.

[Dwill]

This is a function of people with terrible DPS. If I make a Ramuh EX PF, I'm putting i110 as the minimum ilvl because putting it any lower raises the risk that the people you get won't be able to get the adds down in time. I've seen it happen on more than one occasion: a group with an average ilvl 100+ (which is over 15 ilvls higher than the minimum requirement) wiping multiple times to Judgment Bolt. That's not a gear issue, that's a "people don't know how to play their jobs" issue. At least people who are i110 might be able to kill the adds simply by virtue of their ilvl even if their rotation is terrible.

It's hardly ridiculous to expect people to be competent at their role if they're going to participate in endgame content. The fact that we can't expect that is what leads to high ilvl requirements and "three strikes you're out" rules.

Exactly this. There is a reason people will demand a higher iLvL than necessary and that's because if people under perform at the expected iLvL (which is is quite often in Party Finder), then one of the only way to make sure the necessary checks are met is by demanding for people to overgear the content to compensate for their lack of performance.