In-Game Parser.

[QiLymePye]

You see, I think the alienation is already there. I don't think parsers will inherently affect that. It always will exist as people will put stipulations on who they are willing to group with. If you don't fit that condition you are alienated. The issue in its current form is that people only can use arbitrary conditions such as ilvl or achievement record to base this on. With a parser showing real I game performance it wouldn't be as arbitrary. And the people excluded would have more tools to know where they stand and how to improve.

But you have to use your example as a double edge sword. Having a parser like what pc players have will result in even more alienation, lets be honest. Like you said, right now we have it based on ilvl and achievement and even gil amounts. What do you think will actually happen once you start adding another set of numbers to judge people by? What needs to happen is that people that are calling for parser have to put their heads together and think of a way that gets them the parser and doesn't allow the player base to feel discriminated against/ picked on. Because believe it or not, if a majority of the casual players leave this game because of the few elites that are pushing for this, the game will fail. have to cater to the masses.

[Kazumac]

But you have to use your example as a double edge sword. Having a parser like what pc players have will result in even more alienation, lets be honest. Like you said, right now we have it based on ilvl and achievement and even gil amounts. What do you think will actually happen once you start adding another set of numbers to judge people by? What needs to happen is that people that are calling for parser have to put their heads together and think of a way that gets them the parser and doesn't allow the player base to feel discriminated against/ picked on. Because believe it or not, if a majority of the casual players leave this game because of the few elites that are pushing for this, the game will fail. have to cater to the masses.

I don't think it will increase, the players will merely switch the useless measure of performance (ilvl) for a meaningful one like actual dps performance. Personally I see inflated ilvl requirements because players want to be darned sure they can complete the content, with an actual dps measure, you have a more accurate way to judge and you might even get into groups based on your actual skill rather than an unnecessarily inflated ilvl.

So no, my argument is not a double edged sword. I believe this metric would replace current metrics with meaningful ones and not increase the number of groups with requirements to join them. Granted this is just a theory (as is yours) of what would happen and neither of us will know for sure unless it is actually added to the game.

[Krr]

Honestly given how many tools are used to gate players out of PF groups irrationally, like clear flags that you can buy for a couple million gil with no practice at all, including a rational one (A DPS measurement for fights that, as of recent, have included very tight DPS checks) seems to cause little harm at worst, and could even remove irrational requirement checks at best.

[Kazumac]

Honestly given how many tools are used to gate players out of PF groups irrationally, like clear flags that you can buy for a couple million gil with no practice at all, including a rational one (A DPS measurement for fights that, as of recent, have included very tight DPS checks) seems to cause little harm at worst, and could even remove irrational requirement checks at best.

Thank you. It is funny how people think keeping everyone in the dark and ignorant enhances and improves the quality of the community... /sigh

[QiLymePye]

I don't think it will increase, the players will merely switch the useless measure of performance (ilvl) for a meaningful one like actual dps performance. Personally I see inflated ilvl requirements because players want to be darned sure they can complete the content, with an actual dps measure, you have a more accurate way to judge and you might even get into groups based on your actual skill rather than an unnecessarily inflated ilvl.

So no, my argument is not a double edged sword. I believe this metric would replace current metrics with meaningful ones and not increase the number of groups with requirements to join them. Granted this is just a theory (as is yours) of what would happen and neither of us will know for sure unless it is actually added to the game.

But see, thats the point. its all just numbers. You can make data fit your case at anytime but it doesn't mean its correct. Just like someone else stated, having that parser the way it is now will not help many players. You will have players just trying to maximize their numbers, even if it means playing their role incorrect because they want the output. This game does have the dps checks in the end game but teamwork should be more important than anything else.

And also, this game needs more of things that makes the community come together, not pit them against each other. Thats why parser is really only in PvP, because you are competing. In PvE, you should be helping each other more to obtain your goals. but whatever...let them add it. I say they put it on a trial period, add it temporarily just to see how it works. guarantee they remove it afterwards unless they add it in a why to be more helpful than damning.

[Krr]

You will have players just trying to maximize their numbers, even if it means playing their role incorrect because they want the output.

The only situation where you could possibly have this occur with DPS roles in a Second or Final Coil situation is a Bard refusing to sing. On top of this, all recent (T10+) content basically expects all players to be DPSing so hard that the only thing keeping them below their 100% uptime training dummy DPS is the boss occasionally turning invincible or moving out of range. Failing a mechanic causes you to die, dying causes your DPS to go down, so players looking to "max their DPS" will do whatever it takes to stay alive.

Outside of these fights that require near-perfect DPS peformance? There are no community gating tools that keep players from participating. Crystal Tower, story Trials, Dungeons, et al don't have scads of party finders saying "clear or kick", and they won't gain scads of players kicking people over their DPS all of a sudden. Even then, there's few situations where coping with a mechanic should meaningfully slow your DPS. You'll see a 10-20% decrease at worst, and that's usually due to super outdated stuff dying or triggering mechanics so fast nobody's job makes sense any more.

In fact, the only fight I can think of where "DPS focusing on maxing their numbers" would cause someone to 'fail' at a role is Moggle Mog EX. The rest of the time, ignoring a mechanic to burn is asking to die, which makes your DPS worse.

[Kazumac]

But see, thats the point. its all just numbers. You can make data fit your case at anytime but it doesn't mean its correct. Just like someone else stated, having that parser the way it is now will not help many players. You will have players just trying to maximize their numbers, even if it means playing their role incorrect because they want the output. This game does have the dps checks in the end game but teamwork should be more important than anything else.

And also, this game needs more of things that makes the community come together, not pit them against each other. Thats why parser is really only in PvP, because you are competing. In PvE, you should be helping each other more to obtain your goals. but whatever...let them add it. I say they put it on a trial period, add it temporarily just to see how it works. guarantee they remove it afterwards unless they add it in a why to be more helpful than damning.

A parser is not a sole consideration for proper play. But it is a meaningful metric for which we do not have available and that it is why it is being asked for.

As for your comment about parsers leading to improper play, most high end successful raid groups use them and well... I doubt we are arguing that they don't know how to play their jobs right?

People making judgement calls on uninformed half assumptions as we are forced to do today is at least equally damning to the community as a whole. Again I don't think we'll ever see eye to eye but I cannot in my right mind argue for an ignorant and uninformed player base.

There have been suggestions players can opt to share their data or not that are only applicable to preformed parties and I would be all for that to allow for both play styles. (this would not fix the divide)