T13 adds

[stoxastic]

So it is flash, or loaded BB?

Skull Sunder > provoke > BB does not work.. In multiple attempts, each resulted in whm death. Does not help Med 2 ticking plus giant cure 3 at add spawn.. But this is what I have to work with. If skull sunder > than flash then I don't see flash having much effect. BB works best, but causes the add to AA the healer before returning. I can always try steel cyclone, I haven't yet, it would most likely be better than flash and won't break combo.

Trying again tonight. Several hours worth of trying can be viewed on my twitch.tv/whiskey1bravo if you want to see how bad it gets lol

Try leading with provoke. It's sort of unintuitive because tanking 101 says not to, but if you lead with provoke and instantly Skull Sunder it's very unlikely for the healer to take aggro back.

One very important thing if you are leading with a comboed SS is to BE IN POSITION for the add to spawn. If you cannot immediate get the SS off then you're going to have a bad time. Being in the right position of the add right when it spawns is VERY IMPORTANT and is probably of the main reasons for lost snap aggro.

You healer should not be using Medica II into Cure 3. There is no need for the cure 3 right after rage of bahamut. There is absolutely no raid damage at that point so the raid doesn't need to be immediately topped off. Cure 3 generates a lot of hate and even a well timed flash/overpower might not be enough.

If your problem is enmity and not damage, I'd like to recommend just Overpower. It's what I do when I feel like I'm lagging or I don't have a pre-built SS/BB. I've tried Flash but it's honestly too much effort to get down the timing (Shadows spawn really slowly) and OP will seal hate against anything as long as you hit it as soon as possible. Mash tab target like your life depends on it (or, well, your WHM's life).

Another note, your WHM can either run next to you to hope and pray that they don't die from the single smack, or they can run away as the Shadow is coming toward them w/ Sprint and it'll leash back to you if you've gotten off OP/SS/whatever.

Overpower is fast and instant which is safe but you're left with no followup and if your WHM is Cure 3 bombing after Rage it might not be enough.

[SpookyGhost]

Overpower is fast and instant which is safe but you're left with no followup and if your WHM is Cure 3 bombing after Rage it might not be enough.

Unchained -> OP -> Brutal + Veng -> BB/SE combo is usually fine for me. 2nd one I do OP -> Brutal + Thrill -> IB -> Conv -> BB/SE combo. Then again the WHM I go with just has a Med 2 ticking, since there's no need for a Cure 3. SS -> BB is significantly better but a lot of people seem to have trouble with it, whereas OP is a lot easier to manage. Though animation cancelling has been disproved, using Brutal Swing after OP/SS/BB will get you quicker snap aggro due to the damage of BS registering quickly (especially for BB).

Those shadows are basically just a huge pain and you've gotta try your hardest to get the snappiest snap aggro you can manage.

[SpookyGhost]

Trying again tonight. Several hours worth of trying can be viewed on my twitch.tv/whiskey1bravo if you want to see how bad it gets lol

Watched one of the recordings of your attempts (http://www.twitch.tv/whiskey1bravo/b/654989155) and I'd like to offer some tips that may help:

1.) You seem to use SP -> BB, sometimes even SP -> BB -> BB. This isn't a good OT rotation no matter what your goal is with it. Eye -> Path will result in higher DPS for you, the MT, and the NIN (especially the NIN as it will allow him to drop the slashing debuff bit of his rotation) as well as 100% uptime of both debuffs. SP -> BB -> BB is especially bad as it will drop Path for a brief period.

2.) Sometimes you're a bit slow on the add pickup, or you aren't there when the add is about to spawn. You actually did fairly well on picking up some of them, 25:17 is a good example of where you executed correctly. The reason it turns is because you didn't use anything else and BB's animation takes 500 years to register aggro, so using Brutal Swing there would've probably kept it solid quicker.

3.) You stay in Defiance between Shadows, which isn't necessary and does nothing but lower your damage. If you use Infuriate before/as the Shadow is about to spawn, it will be back up when the next one spawns - this means there is a full 60s between each Shadow spawn. 60s of nerfed Defiance damage where you aren't tanking anything that needs that extra HP.

4.) Just a small thing in regards to my first point, after the first Shadow dies you can use SE first over SP since the Flatten is going to be Hallowed. For the other 2 Shadows, however, you want to pre-build an SP to put on the boss for the upcoming Flattens.

5.) Another sorta small thing, you don't open with Infuriate -> Unchained -> combo buttons until Unchained wears off -> IB -> drop Defiance -> etc. That's a free fully buffed 300 pot attack you could be using.

6.) It's worth it to interrupt your combo to pre-load a SS vs a BB for the Shadow. SS is much easier to manage than BB, though obviously BB will give you more initial aggro. I'm usually fine on aggro with just a combo'd SS as long as it's just Med 2 ticking.

7.) You don't always need to use IB for each Shadow. Your Infuriate usage should be Unchained -> IB -> Unchained, Thrill + Conv/Veng for the first one and then whichever you didn't use for the 3rd. Remember, Unchained allows for a free IB on the boss and that's a good chunk of damage to be missing out on.

Xeno did a guide on various small things you can do to better your WAR in 13, which I'd recommend checking out: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KqgpxqqmkLA

You actually seem perfectly fine for 13, there's just things you'll want to change to help your group overall and maximize your (and other's) DPS output. The higher your group DPS in progression, the more chances you have to see later phases and the less mechanics you have to deal with. You've also got the right idea for the Shadows, you just need to work on using an off GCD after your initial GCD (preferably Brutal Swing).

[Casper]

you just need to work on using an off GCD after your initial GCD (preferably Brutal Swing).

I would just like to point out that the idea that using an Off GCD attack after your GCD shortens the time before it takes effect is wrong. It has been debunked on reddit (shouldn't be too hard to search for it if you are so inclined). The animation will be shorter, but the time at which the damage / hate / debuffs will take effect will remain the same -- it has been tested properly now.

The ONE thing that you can do if you want to get quicker aggro than the Butcher's Block combo, is... Not to use BB. Instead, if you go provoke ->skull sunder -> brutal swing -> BB, you will get much quicker aggro (due to skull sunder being faster than BB), and you will get better long run aggro too (since you will get SS + BB aggro before starting a new combo instead of just BB).

Edit: Relevant Reddit Posts. Unfortunately, the debunking got less press than the initial "trick" got, so it is now widespread.

[SpookyGhost]

I would just like to point out that the idea that using an Off GCD attack after your GCD shortens the time before it takes effect is wrong.

Though animation cancelling has been disproved, using Brutal Swing after OP/SS/BB will get you quicker snap aggro due to the damage of BS registering quickly (especially for BB).

Yeah, pointed that out. SS is better in general, though BB is higher single GCD snap aggro if necessary and you have BS available. For Shadows I think OP or SS is best, it's honestly not too big of a deal which you use. Flash works, apparently, though if the GCD for Flash is still ticking once you're able to target the Shadow then you've got a bit of a problem in terms of damage/enmity generated... but we're nearing the end of 2.5 so do whatever works lol

[Casper]

Snip

Damn, my bad for reading in diagonal, good call

[SpookyGhost]

Edit: Relevant Reddit Posts. Unfortunately, the debunking got less press than the initial "trick" got, so it is now widespread.

^^^^^ BS doesn't actually cancel BB's animation, it just registers the damage of BS before the damage of BB giving you quicker snap aggro. If you use any oGCD skill it won't have any affect on BB besides giving you a tiny bit of aggro due to CDs inherently generating aggro when used. BS actually does damage and therefore generates more aggro, thus if you're going to use BB then you should use BS.

[SpookyGhost]

If your problem is enmity and not damage, I'd like to recommend just Overpower. It's what I do when I feel like I'm lagging or I don't have a pre-built SS/BB. I've tried Flash but it's honestly too much effort to get down the timing (Shadows spawn really slowly) and OP will seal hate against anything as long as you hit it as soon as possible. Mash tab target like your life depends on it (or, well, your WHM's life).

Another note, your WHM can either run next to you to hope and pray that they don't die from the single smack, or they can run away as the Shadow is coming toward them w/ Sprint and it'll leash back to you if you've gotten off OP/SS/whatever.

[Credor]

If your problem is enmity and not damage, I'd like to recommend just Overpower. It's what I do when I feel like I'm lagging or I don't have a pre-built SS/BB. I've tried Flash but it's honestly too much effort to get down the timing (Shadows spawn really slowly) and OP will seal hate against anything as long as you hit it as soon as possible.

I play Flash when add appears on target list (2nd and 3rd add) or when is half way down (1st add) and this gives me aggro when he landed (game has delay with aggro changing) and few sec for play BB without aggro lose. I'm played on PS4 with game recording and checked many times frame by frame, whats going on (aggro changing, aggro bars in party list).
Overpower has main disadvantages: needs target and break combo.

[whiskeybravo]

Med 2 + cure 3 seems like overkill in all honesty. If stacks are balanced it's not like gigaflare where everyone is at 2-3k health after. Maybe one or 2 people need a cure 2 but everyone else with 1 stack damage is minimal. Maybe if she keeps getting cleaved it will sink it.. xD