Why not abolish the Class system entirely in favor of Jobs? [@ Devs]

[lolodin]

I think they should make more like ff1 lol start off with a job (black mage) do some quest an upgrade it to adv job (black wizard) no weapon restrictions what so ever except the ones made for that job staffs etc. no mages with swords no dd with staffs

[Raagnar]

People mentioning ffxi and using different weapons on a job need to remember that that was not a choice, there was a right and wrong. War using dagger = fail. yes you had the option but who does it? its a fake choice. Example: FFXIV warrior maxes out INT and MND = WEAK. Its not a true choice because there is a right and wrong answer, its a calculated descision.

Remember, SE made the armoury system. The can bend it how they wish, if drk does come from gla they dont HAVE to use swords they can change it however they like, and even if they do turn drk into a semi-tank there is nothing wrong with that other then your hurt nostalgia "drk is DD /cry". BRD has been changed from the pathetic role it was in ffxi, lets face it, very few truly liked bard for what it was, just how they got praised for being the buffer bitch.

[Shougun]

You are forgetting something: all those jobs were after 10 years.

They didn't come out right away, agreed. However it is extremely important to build systems that can be expanded upon logically and efficiently. The current job system is one that will just get messier and less unique as time goes on - it can go on.. but as SE has the opportunity to change it they might as well before in ARR release its just called a bad feature.

(Perhaps in ARR beta there are bigger changes to classes)

I think they should make more like ff1 lol start off with a job (black mage) do some quest an upgrade it to adv job (black wizard) no weapon restrictions what so ever except the ones made for that job staffs etc. no mages with swords no dd with staffs

Never knew why mages with small swords was a problem XD.. I mean Gandolf.. common.. great staff great sword dual wielding badass...

But yeah I think a more FFT/FFXI job system approach would be better.

People mentioning ffxi and using different weapons on a job need to remember that that was not a choice, there was a right and wrong. War using dagger = fail. yes you had the option but who does it? its a fake choice. Example: FFXIV warrior maxes out INT and MND = WEAK. Its not a true choice because there is a right and wrong answer, its a calculated descision.

Remember, SE made the armoury system. The can bend it how they wish, if drk does come from gla they dont HAVE to use swords they can change it however they like, and even if they do turn drk into a semi-tank there is nothing wrong with that other then your hurt nostalgia "drk is DD /cry". BRD has been changed from the pathetic role it was in ffxi, lets face it, very few truly liked bard for what it was, just how they got praised for being the buffer bitch.

The lack of 'choice' between 'the choices' available is SE/The Dev teams fault, not the systems. And there where some pretty good off the norm for that job weapons, but I agree it wasn't as often or as many as I would have liked.

[Raagnar]

Considering the system is unable to make descisions and upgrade itself.. of course its the devs "fault". But im not sure what you mean since there is nothing wrong with removing false choices. But people requested things like this, they removed stat allocation and players wanted it back badly so they got it. I guess if players realy really want to use less useful weapons for their job Im ok with it but Im betting youre still going to get the WAR uses GA or gtfo mentality of ffxi.

[Shougun]

Considering the system is unable to make descisions and upgrade itself.. of course its the devs "fault". But im not sure what you mean since there is nothing wrong with removing false choices. But people requested things like this, they removed stat allocation and players wanted it back badly so they got it. I guess if players realy really want to use less useful weapons for their job Im ok with it but Im betting youre still going to get the WAR uses GA or gtfo mentality of ffxi.

False choices will always exist - the thing is not to 'attempt' to remove them but make the player satisfied in making them (and at the same time make them think they didnt make a false choice). Even if you made a system that appeared to be 100% false choice-less at face value if you ever made a given scenario like fighting X boss then more false choices would appear.

Also in FFXI there were spears that samurai could use that were awesome - the freedom of weapon choice wasn't always a facade. I said it was the dev's fault for making so few choices. But there are not that many weapons and unlike WoW the weapons didnt /roll stats so that is part of the reason.

[Thebard]

You are forgetting something: all those jobs were after 10 years.

What did they have in the beginning? 6

After their first expansion: 15

We have 3 DoL, 7 DoW amd DoM with 7 jobs and and and 8th on the way, and about 8 crafting jobs.

Even if you didnt count the classes that's 19 different style of play. 19 things to level to 50.

If you were just count the classes you fight with its 8 things to level to 50, which could result in up to16 different styles of play depending on the changes in ARR. (Arcanist to summoner tactics for example.)

DoL and DoH jobs do not count, they can't fight and they have no cross class abilities, they may be called jobs but they are something else, maybe they should be called trades instead.

[Raagnar]

False choices will always exist - the thing is not to 'attempt' to remove them but make the player satisfied in making them (and at the same time make them think they didnt make a false choice). Even if you made a system that appeared to be 100% false choice-less at face value if you ever made a given scenario like fighting X boss then more false choices would appear.

Also in FFXI there were spears that samurai could use that were awesome - the freedom of weapon choice wasn't always a facade. I said it was the dev's fault for making so few choices. But there are not that many weapons and unlike WoW the weapons didnt /roll stats so that is part of the reason.

I think you misunderstand what i mean by choice in video games. We are all faced with events labeled as choices in our day to day lives, what to wear, what to eat, practically everything you do. None of this has anything to do with video game choice in regards to development.

Reactions and calculations are not choices. Boss battles provide no choice unless the outcome effects your character permanently in some way. Im not saying using false choice in games is bad, there are plenty of fun titles that decieve the player into thinking they had an option when the outcome is always the same, or you fail because you made the wrong choice. But we dont need it in this system imo.

SAM using polearm was in special situations against mobs weak to piercing and can hardly be considered a standard or viable permanent option, all sam will always have a great katana as well(at least when I played).

[Warlock]

The class system does nothing but hamstring the job system and limits overall creativity that can be put into job specializations and variations within the job itself.

It's like PLD and DRK bith coming from gladiator, sounds good on paper until you fealize that unless DRK is going to also be a tanky class gladiator lends nothing to any other roll than tanking. Boom, brick wall...not only that drk would be limited to single handed swords due to once again the class system being counter productive. This scenario plays out with bard as well making them need to focus on dps as well instead of being able to focus as a full buffer they need to juggle and make archer skills integral to the job.

What happens when or if they introduce a new job like blue mage who uses a whip or some weapon not i the armory system? We need to introduce a class for that job spending twice the ammount of time and effort and also need to make sure the class can balance with all the skills they can grab from others while still making Blue mage not feel like a upgrade from that class and be unique somehow. Forthe most parts jobs act as just a slight more ficused class without the freedom of choice but all the kimitations that came with it.

Classes really need to go or be further seperated from the job system, makenthe jobs wholy unique and not tied down to their origin class with half their skills originating from their class cunterparts.

PROBLEM? classes ain't going anywhere

[Shougun]

I think you misunderstand what i mean by choice in video games. We are all faced with events labeled as choices in our day to day lives, what to wear, what to eat, practically everything you do. None of this has anything to do with video game choice in regards to development.

Reactions and calculations are not choices. Boss battles provide no choice unless the outcome effects your character permanently in some way. Im not saying using false choice in games is bad, there are plenty of fun titles that decieve the player into thinking they had an option when the outcome is always the same, or you fail because you made the wrong choice. But we dont need it in this system imo.

SAM using polearm was in special situations against mobs weak to piercing and can hardly be considered a standard or viable permanent option, all sam will always have a great katana as well(at least when I played).

Nah I got you. I just feel like its futile to kill entirely rather accept the issue and embelish it instead.

If you try to kill false choices to the bone you get a barren or at least clone piece game, in the end players will not even make any choice because only one makes sense.

The polearms were viable in situation - but I already told you that I felt FFXI dev team didnt include -enough- choices with their free system.

I agreed that in FFXI most of it was a obvious false choices. However it doesnt have to be so. Boss battles offer choice as well - just because something is effective doesnt mean it must be done or is done. Like breaking horns in 1.0 or coming BLM when you should have came THM.

False choice is useful- it just shouldnt be obvious (and when it comes apparent it should be offseted by the enjoyment of that choice like "Oh well, I love using katanas - I dont care that this weapon is a little better for this boss").

Edit:
Want to add since I've been using the word you used (false choice) - what I'm looking for is greater variation not purposely including "worse" elements. You can attempt to design compareables and not clones. However designing compareables will make a false choice depending on event. Clones and 100% statics will remove all false choices but that is extremely boring.

[Thebard]

PROBLEM? classes ain't going anywhere

Did your crystal ball tell you that?